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The Gathering Storm: The Brazil-Venezuela-Cuba Axis
FrontPageMagazine.com ^ | April 28, 2003 | Steven C. Baker

Posted on 04/28/2003 2:46:19 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe

In its National Strategy for Combating Terrorism (Feb. 2003) the White House outlined a policy that calls for "direct and continuous actions against terrorist groups, the cumulative effect of which will initially disrupt, over time degrade, and ultimately destroy the terrorist organizations." The plan also recognizes that "the more frequently and relentlessly we strike the terrorists across all fronts, using all the tools of statecraft, the more effective we will be."

If this is to be the measure of an effective counter-terror policy, then the Bush Administration must begin to apply its tenets more aggressively against the increasing number of terrorist organizations—either indigenous groups with global reach or international entities such as Hizballah, Islamic Jihad, or al-Qaeda – that have begun to operate in the Western Hemisphere with the acquiescence of various anti-U.S. regimes.

The current governments of Brazil (da Silva), Cuba (Castro), and Venezuela (Chavez) are each home to the sort of anti-American fervor that forms the foundation for most terrorist safehavens. Even more worrisome, they stand poised to remake South America in their image through a well-organized strategy that brings to power -- via legitimate means (i.e. elections) -- other leftist leaders whose political agendas and support for terrorist organizations will undermine U.S. interests and the overall security of the Western Hemisphere. There will be serious long-term implications if the U.S. does not develop a more efficacious strategic policy to deal with the growing influence of these communist devotees.

On 7 August 2002 Former National Security Council member and senior fellow at the Hudson Institute, Dr. Constantine Menges wrote in the Washington Times that a "Castro-Chavez-da Silva" axis could directly threaten the security of the United States. Among other points, he argued that this axis would link "43 years of Fidel Castro’s political warfare against the [U.S.] with the oil wealth of Venezuela and the nuclear weapons/ballistic missile and economic potential of Brazil."

Dr. Menges has identified the Brazilian leader Luiz Inacio "Lula" da Silva as a key player in the axis and he has warned that Lula’s stewardship of the Forum of Sao Paolo – the progeny of Castro’s "Tricontinental Congress" which helped transnational terrorist organizations synchronize their efforts during the late 1960’s to undermine U.S. national security– will help pro-Castro candidates mount strong political campaigns throughout South America. Furthermore, he notes in a 10 December 2002 Washington Times article that the Forum of Sao Paulo includes "all the communist and radical political parties and armed communist terrorist organizations of Latin America together with terrorist groups from Europe (IRA, ETA) and the Middle East (PFLP-GC), as well as participants from Iraq, Libya, Cuba and other state sponsors of terrorism."

Similarly, the Chairman of the House International Relations Committee Henry Hyde, in a letter to President Bush dated 24 October 2002, described Lula da Silva as a "pro-Castro radical" and cautioned that a new "axis of evil in the Americas" could be afoot. Congressman Hyde also detailed Brazil’s experiment with a nuclear weapons program (1965-1994) and its success in creating a "30 kiloton nuclear bomb, which could be quickly tested if the program were revived." In all likelihood this will occur if Lula’s stated intention to withdraw Brazil from the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) is not contravened sharply by the United States.

President da Silva’s involvement with the Forum of Sao Paolo may also explain his refusal to classify the Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarias de Colombia (FARC) – a communist insurgency whose goal it is to destroy the democratically elected government of President Alvaro Uribe – a terrorist organization. Instead, on 4 March 2003 the Latin American Weekly Report noted that Brazil’s Foreign Minister Celso Amorim felt that labeling the FARC a terrorist organization was more about "semantics" than terrorism. Not so for Colombia’s embattled President, who could not disagree more with the Brazilian government’s position. He told United Press International on 7 March 2003 that it is more than appropriate to designate as "terrorists" those groups that detonate car bombs. "It is not a value judgment," he argued, "it is terrorism."

As for Fidel Castro, it is important to mention his trip to the Islamic Republic of Iran in May 2001 where, according to Agence France Presse, he declared that "Iran and Cuba, in cooperation with each other, can bring America to its knees." Could this portend the formation of a terrorist-WMD nexus in the Western Hemisphere?

It is a well established fact that Iran funds, trains, and provides safehaven for notorious terrorist organizations Hizballah, Hamas, and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad – an entity that Attorney General John Ashcroft has described separately as "one of the most violent terrorist organizations in the world." It is also recognized that Iran is trying to acquire a nuclear weapons capability. The Washington Post reported on 10 March 2003 that by 2005 Iran could "be capable of producing enough enriched uranium for several nuclear bombs each year." Therefore, any affiliation between Cuba and Iran should be treated as a direct threat to the security of the United States. It may also forewarn of the likelihood that pro-Castro leaders – some of whom already show a tolerance for terrorist organizations and a penchant for nuclear weaponry – will join with other state sponsors of terrorism around the world to threaten the security of the United States.

Finally, the rule of Venezuela’s current President Hugo Chavez is even more problematic now that he has, for all intents and purposes, an ally in ‘Lula’ da Silva. In the same aforesaid October 2002 letter to President Bush, Congressman Henry Hyde also warned that Chavez’s rule threatens "the well-being and security of people in neighboring democratic countries as well as to the United States." He charged that Hugo Chavez "forged public alliances with states sponsors of terrorism including Cuba, Iraq, and Iran…" and "supported terrorist organizations" including the FARC in Colombia.

There is a larger point to make regarding the subject of state-sponsorship of terrorism. Many Western Hemispheric states employ condemnatory language to distance themselves from specific acts of terror while the groups that are responsible for such ignoble behavior escape serious rebuke. It has become an internationally accepted practice to exploit vacuous rhetoric in such a manner that a state can appear "with" the United States while acting "against" its struggle to root out terrorists. The United States must insist that opposition to terrorism begin with a denouncement of those who carry out such acts. Without taking this basic first step any subsequent action to combat international terrorism will be disingenuous.

For instance, the Consultation of Ministers of Foreign Affairs of the Organization of American States met on 21 September 2001 to reaffirm "the absolute rejection by the people and governments of the Americas of terrorists acts and activities, which endanger democracy and the security of the states of the Hemisphere."

Almost one month later, on 15 October 2001, the Inter-American Committee Against Terrorism (CICTE) promulgated a declaration that expressed its "most vigorous condemnation of the terrorist acts that occurred on the United States territory" on 11 September 2001.

The Inter-American Convention Against Terrorism (adopted on 3 June 2002) reaffirms two interesting points. It says that the parties (including Brazil and Venezuela) recognize "the need to adopt effective steps in the inter-American system to prevent, punish, and eliminate terrorism through the broadest cooperation." Furthermore, its expresses the "commitment of the states to prevent, combat, punish and eliminate terrorism."

The aforementioned examples constitute a counter-terror paradigm that is weak and illusory. No state can be permitted to focus the majority of its attention and resources on the symptoms rather than the sources of the terrorist problem. Moreover, there is a dearth of anti-terror phraseology to address the problem of regimes that support terrorist groups in other countries. The Convention only exhorts each state to deny sanction to terrorist groups "within their territories" (read: "within their [respective] territories").

The United States is now at a crossroads.

First, the United States must buck what is becoming a trend in the Western Hemisphere; namely, that democratic means are being manipulated by leftist leaders to preclude the United States from affecting or supporting "regime change," lest it appear to subvert the democratic process. To this end, the removal of Fidel Castro from power could provide a benchmark against which all pro-Castro leaders can judge their future behavior.

Moreover, a congressionally approved regime change in Cuba could at this moment accomplish three other important tasks: One, Fidel Castro’s absence would have a detumescent effect on those leftists who exhibit a penchant for Castro-ism. Two, a positive regime change would eliminate Fidel Castro’s ideational inspiration, which serves as the greatest source of intellectual, ideological, and political anti-Americanism in the region. Three, the United States would destroy one of the most powerful logistical infrastructures for supporting terrorist movements. Cuba’s military and intelligence advisors would no longer be able to assist anti-U.S. regimes or terrorist organizations.

Second, The United States must demand that Brazil abandon any material attempt to obtain weapons of mass destruction. Any evidence to the contrary should result in devastating consequences. On the terror front, the United States can test the veracity of Brazil’s numerous pledges to fight terrorism by requesting an unequivocal denunciation of the FARC and an exhibition of the appropriate legal measures to support this rhetorical decision.

Third, without Fidel Castro’s intellectual, ideological, and political influence, Hugo Chavez would assume the status of an unimpressive despot akin to Saddam Hussein’s Yasser Arafat. At that point he might be more easily contained until a future date when the people of Venezuela can be encouraged to elect someone more competent to lead that great country.

Unless the United States government adopts a coherent Western Hemispheric strategy to counter the influence of the Castro- da Silva-Chavez tripartite, one can expect to witness the growth of this "axis" and a concomitant rise in terrorist related activity in the region. As an example of things to come the Washington Times reported on 7 April 2003 that Al Qaeda terrorists had plans to enter the United States illegally through Mexico to carry our attacks against various targets. It is wholly conceivable that these terrorists could one day commence operations from secure locations in the Western Hemisphere and given enough time they may even attain a nuclear weapons capability courtesy of an anti-U.S. regime.

To borrow a phrase from the Bush Doctrine: "…the United States cannot remain idle while dangers gather."


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Cuba; Editorial; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: alqaeda; borderpatrol; brazil; castro; chavez; cuba; dasilva; farc; hizbollah; homelandsecurity; ij; latinamerica; latinamericalist; lula; oas; pflp; terrorism; triborder; tripleborder; venezuela; westernhemispher; westernhemisphere
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Marxist Axis of Evil?

Chavez Plans for Terrorist Regime

From Venezuela, A Counterplot

Brazil - We Need the Bomb

1 posted on 04/28/2003 2:46:20 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Castro delendus est.
2 posted on 04/28/2003 2:55:28 PM PDT by Chairman Fred (@mousiedung.commie)
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Makes about as much sense as Thailand, Laos, and Vietnam uniting against China. Like Mondale said, where's the beef?
3 posted on 04/28/2003 3:00:00 PM PDT by RightWhale (Theorems link concepts; proofs establish links)
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To: *Latin_America_List; Cincinatus' Wife
http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/bump-list
4 posted on 04/28/2003 3:09:52 PM PDT by Libertarianize the GOP (Ideas have consequences)
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To: Tailgunner Joe; All
Cross-link:

-Time to kick the tires & light the fires, folks- terrorism gathers across the World...--

-The Fire Down South...( Latin America--)--

5 posted on 04/28/2003 3:22:24 PM PDT by backhoe (Terror and "national liberation" group are all interlinked...)
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Hmmmmm. Coincidence that Brazil was a transit point for that anthrax suitcase?
6 posted on 04/28/2003 3:34:01 PM PDT by Constitutionalist Conservative (http://c-pol.com)
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To: Tailgunner Joe; sheltonmac; tpaine
I truly didn't think the neocons were this serious or this deranged
7 posted on 04/28/2003 3:36:50 PM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: Thud
FYI
8 posted on 04/28/2003 3:43:57 PM PDT by Dark Wing
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To: Tailgunner Joe; Cincinatus' Wife
The Brazil/China, Venezuela/China, Colombia/China, Panama/China, Mexico/China, Cuba/China axis?
9 posted on 04/28/2003 3:56:20 PM PDT by Carry_Okie (There are people in power who are truly evil.)
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To: billbears
Beware said Ike, of the military/industrial complex. They've made their neo-con homes in the Rino party and preparing for perpetual war seems to be their game.
A damn dangerous fools game, imo.
10 posted on 04/28/2003 4:11:23 PM PDT by tpaine (Really, I'm trying to be a 'decent human being', but me flesh is weak.)
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To: Tailgunner Joe
First, the United States must buck what is becoming a trend in the Western Hemisphere; namely, that democratic means are being manipulated by leftist leaders to preclude the United States from affecting or supporting "regime change," lest it appear to subvert the democratic process. To this end, the removal of Fidel Castro from power could provide a benchmark against which all pro-Castro leaders can judge their future behavior.

So by this argument, in the future if any nation's population elects a leader that these United States disagree with policy wise, our government could in effect call for a regime change and have them removed, either by force or other means. And people say this nation's government is not starting to act like an empire....

11 posted on 04/28/2003 4:20:31 PM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: Chairman Fred
Found this article that speaks to the emerging threat in Central and South America. The newsletter is one that I've received for years and provides very good reading. The article is listed under the March 2003 issue.




Christian Anti-Communism Crusade’s 50th Anniversary
http://www.schwarzreport.org/
1953-2003
Reds in Latin America
by Chuck Noe

With the Cold War seemingly won decades ago and the United States focused on terrorism and the Middle East, few Americans worry about communism. But close to home, Latin America’s far left is rising with a vengeance that threatens U.S. interests and security.

Cuba is no longer the only socialistic regime in the Western Hemisphere. Get ready for a new ‘domino effect’:

* Castro allies have won power in Venezuela, Ecuador, Chile and Latin America’s largest country, Brazil.

* Communist guerrillas have wreaked havoc in Peru, Colombia and Bolivia.

* Growing economic crises threaten such debt-ridden nations as Argentina and Uruguay.

With Republicans now controlling both houses of Congress, specialists expect Washington to attend to “Latin America’s populist movements that target U.S. policy as one of its adversaries,” Mark Severino of the Council on Hemispheric Affairs told The Washington Times.

Protests against President Hugo Chavez, an intimate of communist Cuban dictator Fidel Castro, have become routine. U.S. observers share the concerns of Venezuelans.

Chavez threatens freedom in Colombia, Bolivia, Ecuador, Peru and Brazil, warns Constantine C. Menges, a senior fellow with the Hudson Institute and a former assistant for national security to President Ronald Reagan.

“That could bring nearly 300 million people under the control of pro-Castro/Iraq radical regimes before 2004—a major gain for anti-U.S. terrorism and a major setback for the people there and for the Bush administration,” Menges recently told CNN.

A three-letter word explains why Venezuela matters so much: oil. Caracas, the world’s No. 5 exporter of petroleum, has Washington over a 42-gallon barrel.

A general strike against Chavez in December paralyzed Venezuela’s oil industry, which fills more than 10 percent of America’s supply. Such disruptions can recur at any time.

If unchecked, Chavez and Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva will cement “a powerful axis of evil right in the Western Hemisphere,” Menges recently warned the Institute of World Politics.
12 posted on 04/28/2003 10:47:18 PM PDT by freedombrigade (Cry Havoc, Let slip the dogs of war!)
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To: Jeff Head
BTTT
13 posted on 04/28/2003 10:49:24 PM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Tailgunner Joe
One might also add to the fact that China has accomplished what the Soviets could not--a foothold in violation of the Monroe Doctrine that threatens the key naval chokepoints in the Western Hemisphere, as well as those in the Pacific and the world, including Long Beach Harbor.

It's time to wake up the alliance that is arrayed against us before it's too late.
14 posted on 04/28/2003 10:49:40 PM PDT by freedombrigade (Cry Havoc, Let slip the dogs of war!)
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To: Tailgunner Joe
It's long past time to see the rebels and so-called fire-brand leaders of our hemisphere, as the anti-American terrorists they are. I don't want another 9-11 to raise everyone's learning curve.
15 posted on 04/28/2003 11:22:46 PM PDT by Cincinatus' Wife
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To: Tailgunner Joe
re Cuba...


INATODAY.com - INTERNATIONAL NEWS ANALYSIS -- TODAY by Toby Westerman: "FASCIST AMERICA? Russia and Communist Cuba Join In 'Anti-Fascist-Front'" (ARTICLE SNIPPET: "At the Moscow meeting, Russia declared that Cuba is its "key partner in Latin America." The Russian Foreign Ministry issued a press statement referring to an "active political dialogue based on mutual trust" between Russia and Cuba. "The two countries have similar or identical stances on a whole number of global political issues. Most importantly…on the construction of a fair and stable world order," the Russian Foreign Ministry declared. The "construction of a fair and stable world order" for Cuba and Russia includes sophisticated intelligence operations against the United States. Cuban operates a sophisticated intelligence program against the U.S. One of its highly placed agents, Ana Belen Montes, worked at the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency before her arrest and conviction of espionage in October 2002. The "Wasp Network," a Cuban espionage group spying on U.S. military facilities, was uncovered by the FBI and five of its leaders convicted in 2001. In 2001 the U.S. intelligence community was rocked by the discovery that top FBI intelligence agent Robert Hanssen spied on his country for Moscow for 20 years. On the island of Cuba, Russia still operates the Lourdes spy base, while Russia's close ally, China, is constructing a similar base not far away from Lourdes.") (April 29, 2003) (Read More...)
ALERT...INATODAY.com - INTERNATIONAL NEWS ANALYSIS -- TODAY by Toby Westerman: "NEW RED TERROR" (ARTICLE SNIPPET: "China maintains "high level military contacts" with Cuba, and is constructing an electronic spy base eight to ten miles from Russia's Lourdes intelligence facility, according to Dennis Hays, Executive Vice President of the pro-democracy exile group, the Cuban American National Foundation. The Chinese spy base, which would be capable of intercepting, and possibly jamming, U.S. electronic signals, "should be a security concern" to the U.S., urged Hays in an interview with INA Today. Hays also warned that the communist Chinese are active throughout the South American continent. The Cuban state-run press is openly discussing the "very strong ties with the Cuban military," said Perez, who notes that several Chinese generals have recently visited Cuba. In addition to China, Cuba's traditional friend and supporter, Russia, is still involved in the island.") (April 18, 2003) (Read More...)

16 posted on 04/29/2003 2:18:55 AM PDT by Cindy
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To: freedombrigade
re China...


TOWNHALL.com: "CHINAGATE II: TIME FOR GOP ACTION" -Column by Michelle Malkin (April 23, 2003) (Read More...)

WASHINGTON TIMES.com: "EX-AGENT FOR FBI ARRESTED IN THEFT" by Jerry Seper (April 10, 2003) (Read More...)

INSIGHT On The News online - Fair Comment: "SALE OF TELECOM FIRM TO CHINA POSES ESPIONAGE THREAT" by Rep. Jim Saxton (Read More...)

SAAG.org - SOUTH ASIA ANALYSIS GROUP Paper No. 642: "CHINA'S GRAND STRATEGY AND MILITARY MODERNISATION" by Dr. Subhash Kapila (March 26, 2003) (Read More...)

WASHINGTON TIMES.com: "CHINESE SOLD IRAQ 'DUAL-USE' CHEMICAL" by Bill Gertz (ARTICLE SNIPPET: "Despite French denials, U.S. intelligence and defense officials have confirmed that Iraq purchased from China a chemical used in making fuel for long-range missiles, with help from brokers in France and Syria.") (March 15, 2003) (Read More...)
INSIGHT On The News online: "HOW BEIJING GETS U.S. DEFENSE PLANTS" by Scott L. Wheeler (March 6, 2003) (Read More...)

17 posted on 04/29/2003 2:37:01 AM PDT by Cindy
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To: Tailgunner Joe; Travis McGee; Cindy; Cincinatus' Wife; freedombrigade; backhoe; Carry_Okie
In my Dragon's Fury Series, I have Venezuela, Argentina, Panama and Cuba against us as WW III breaks out in the Mid East and Far East. Luckily, (in that series of novels) Brazil, owing to a horrific tragedy that hits them resulting from Chinese agression, is driven into our camp.

The point is this, the Red Chinese are very active in central and south America and have been now for quite a few years ... lots of influence going on there that could serve as preparation for their future activities.

Best fregards.

Jeff

18 posted on 04/29/2003 5:23:22 AM PDT by Jeff Head
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To: Jeff Head
The point is this, the Red Chinese are very active in central and south America and have been now for quite a few years ...

Exactly, Jeff, exactly... the Central & Southern Americas have long been a hotbed for revolution & terrorism. We need to pay better attention to it.

19 posted on 04/29/2003 5:43:03 AM PDT by backhoe (North Korean Nukes, Hamas, OBL, 9-11... that was some "legacy" Clinton left us...)
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To: backhoe
Amen my friend. And Amen to that Downside Legacy.
20 posted on 04/29/2003 5:47:07 AM PDT by Jeff Head
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To: Cindy
Looks like our "free trade" relationship with communist china is coming back to haunt us all over the world.
21 posted on 04/29/2003 6:04:02 AM PDT by PuNcH
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To: PuNcH
Looks like our "free trade" relationship with communist china is coming back to haunt us all over the world.

Edit that:

"Free trade" is coming back to haunt us all over the world.

It ain't worth the price either.

22 posted on 04/29/2003 6:23:40 AM PDT by Carry_Okie (There are people in power who are truly evil.)
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To: Jeff Head
What's the latest on the Panama-China connection?
23 posted on 04/29/2003 6:29:58 AM PDT by CheneyChick
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To: CheneyChick
My understanding is that they control both ends of the canal ... they are continuing to build extensive facilities and they are pumping money and people into Panama.
24 posted on 04/29/2003 6:46:10 AM PDT by Jeff Head
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To: tpaine
I will agree with you that this solution is a fool's mission framed the way it is in this article.

The article does tempt when it says:
First, the United States must buck what is becoming a trend in the Western Hemisphere; namely, that democratic means are being manipulated by leftist leaders to preclude the United States from affecting or supporting "regime change," lest it appear to subvert the democratic process.

Democratic means are being used to seize power and asset control, not to thwart our "affecting" or "suppoerting". Like the islamic fascists say, "One Man -- One Vote -- One Time." The Rationalist Totalitarian Democracy threat is real, it is built into modern liberalism and will be defended by Jimmy Carter, the French Republic, Quebec and every school child raised on the teat of "democracy", the flavoring agent converted to the entre.

There is a nexus between these three countries and the problems exist, but thinking conservatives aren't out to manage the world.

25 posted on 04/29/2003 6:46:15 AM PDT by KC Burke
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To: Carry_Okie
"Free trade" is coming back to haunt us all over the world.

It was also the neo-con cure all and it is clear how it has failed to live up to their promise in S. America.

Have you read Hernando de Soto's book, The Mystery of Capital yet? His experience in S. America watching the failure of Free Markets, alone, in the last fifteen years is telling. It turns out the Prescriptive Property Ownership, settled Rule of Law and other such Whiggish issues are all the difference.

26 posted on 04/29/2003 6:54:03 AM PDT by KC Burke
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To: billbears
I truly didn't think the neocons were this serious or this deranged.

I am an anti-communist. Are you?

27 posted on 04/30/2003 12:28:31 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Tailgunner Joe
I'm a person that believes in returning to a Constitutional Republic and the federal government to the position it is supposed to be in the lives of the citizens of the respective states. How does an unwarranted attack on a separate and sovereign nation do that?
28 posted on 04/30/2003 12:35:15 PM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: billbears; tpaine
in the future if any nation's population elects a leader that these United States disagree with policy wise, our government could in effect call for a regime change and have them removed

This has always been the case in the past, and it will continue to be the case in the future. We will not allow the Iraqis to elect a Shi'ite zealot, for example. Would you prefer a system of "global governance" that keeps the American warmongers in check?

You seem to share Bill Clinton's dream of a future where the U.S. is the biggest dog on the street

Why do you always have the same positions as democrats and communists?

29 posted on 04/30/2003 12:35:47 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Tailgunner Joe
We will not allow the Iraqis to elect a Shi'ite zealot, for example

LOL!! We won't eh? Tell me, how well has that promise worked in the past with other Empires and their incessant intervention in the Middle East

30 posted on 04/30/2003 12:40:05 PM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: billbears
Any regime which threatens us warrants its overthrow and complete destruction. Our government is obligated to protec us from all threats, whether they have the capability to carry them out or not.

All Communists threaten the U.S. by the very Anti-American nature of their ideology. It is a mistake to have given up the war on Communism at the end of the cold war. We should use take this opportunity while our enemy is weak to eradicate all Communists from the whole world.

31 posted on 04/30/2003 12:42:47 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: billbears
We turned Germany and Japan, the two most hostile and violent regimes in the history of the world into peaceful, democratic, capitalist allies.

Our Republic has succeeded where empires have failed. We will succeed again in Iraq precisely because we are not an empire, and this is not a colonialist enterprise. The Iraqis will be free, so long as they do not decide to be our enemies.

32 posted on 04/30/2003 12:46:08 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Much ado about nothing. Let these people waste their money. The real bottom line to all of this is that we should have shut down our border a long time ago but we refuse to do it. There is no national security threat more urgent than the guarding of our borders.
33 posted on 04/30/2003 12:53:10 PM PDT by grapeape (Hope is not a method. - Gen. Hugh Sheldon)
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To: Carry_Okie
China is everywhere that there is a possibility of countering the US interests.
34 posted on 04/30/2003 1:16:34 PM PDT by Eva
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To: Tailgunner Joe
We turned Germany and Japan, the two most hostile and violent regimes in the history of the world into peaceful, democratic, capitalist allies.

And this constant comparison of two nations, that while aggressive and in the case of Japan a somewhat violent history, to an entire region that has been at war for over 1000 years off and on is getting ridiculous. They're not even in the same league

The Iraqis will be free, so long as they do not decide to be our enemies.

Well that's not true now is it? Rumsfeld has already decided for the Iraqis which types of government are and are not acceptable. Freedom within the good graces of the victors. Yep, that sounds free to me...

35 posted on 04/30/2003 1:28:37 PM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: billbears
You're right. Iraq is not even close to being in the same league as the threat was from Japan or Germany. That will make it all the easier to reform them.

They will be free, but not free to attack the U.S. or any of their other neighbors. They will be free to live in peace in a society ruled by laws, and not by the whims of the majority or the rule of demogogues.

If they don't like it, they can become the most powerful country in the world, and then they can do whatever they want.

36 posted on 04/30/2003 1:37:30 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Tailgunner Joe
There is no doubt in my mind that the author is correct. The only problem is he left out the worst anti-American nation of all--Mexico! Why is the admin so blind about them?
37 posted on 04/30/2003 1:43:46 PM PDT by Paulus Invictus (ax accountant)
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To: Tailgunner Joe
They will be free, but not free to attack the U.S. or any of their other neighbors. They will be free to live in peace in a society ruled by laws, and not by the whims of the majority or the rule of demogogues.

So no democracy eh? I guess that throws out Bush's plans for 'global democracy'. Really I think you guys check with Kristol's nuts over at New American Century to get your talking points. The absolute arrogance that our way is so much better than it's done anywhere else in the world at any time is history is frightening. Talk about rampant nationalism. Tell me, do you have a big 'We're #1' foam finger that you wave around?

If they don't like it, they can become the most powerful country in the world, and then they can do whatever they want.

Oh, no, that's not an imperialistic view at all.... Might makes right is the new catchphrase. So now we dictate how other nations are to establish their governments? And you don't see shades of imperialism in that?!?

38 posted on 04/30/2003 1:49:34 PM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: billbears
I guess that throws out Bush's plans for 'global democracy'.

It is only you isolationists who equate U.S. global military might with Wilsonian "democracy-building." Bush has said that he expects the new Iraq to be a federal republic.

The absolute arrogance that our way is so much better than it's done anywhere else in the world at any time is history is frightening.

Are you French? Whose way is better? Take your moral relativism somewhere else.

Talk about rampant nationalism.

I am a nationalist. Are you?

So now we dictate how other nations are to establish their governments?

When we defeat them in war? Absolutely.

Might Makes Right

39 posted on 04/30/2003 1:58:27 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Bush has said that he expects the new Iraq to be a federal republic.

And Rumsfeld said it would be a democracy no questions asked, not a federal republic. Heck, it's not like we have one ourselves anymore. So the Iraqis are only as free as our government decides to let them be. That's freedom, right?

Are you French? Whose way is better? Take your moral relativism somewhere else

What moral relativism? You can't specifically say our way is better worldwide unless you've walked in the shoes of these people and know their way of life. It's absolute arrogance to tell those from other nations their way of life is not as good as ours

I am a nationalist. Are you?

Nope. Have been in the past, but then I grew up and quit seeing this nation of states as unflawed, just as every other nation is

When we defeat them in war? Absolutely

Ahhh, but that's not allowing the precious freedom Bush promised. And since the Iraqi people are left without leadership, and Bush specifically stated time and time again his problem was with the leadership and not the people, we didn't defeat the people did we? Why should they be punished because of what their leadership did? Face it, you're, and Bush's, argument only allows them to be as free as what the administration wants them to be free. So not completely free as promised by Bush

40 posted on 04/30/2003 2:45:16 PM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: billbears
Your definition of freedom sounds like anarchy to me. We have laws to protect our freedom form those who might take our lives or property. We can't vote a theocratic dictator into power and neither should we allow the Iraqis to.

Your lack of belief in the principles which make America the greatest nation in the world explains your Franco-Clintonian desire to see American power checked. When you see moral equivalence between the US and dictatorial mass-mudering Socialist regimes, it makes you unable to denounce, much less confront, even the most obviously evil tyrrany.

41 posted on 04/30/2003 2:51:41 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Tailgunner Joe
We can't vote a theocratic dictator into power and neither should we allow the Iraqis to.

Please point to me in the Constitution, any of the Federalist papers, or any documents written by the Founding Fathers that states we have the right to determine how other nations are governed. Good grief!!! The British Empire tried that and our ancestors fought them for 6 years and now you're arguing for the right for us to do that?!?

42 posted on 04/30/2003 2:54:53 PM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Excellent and timely post. You might also be interested in this


43 posted on 04/30/2003 2:57:23 PM PDT by mac_truck
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To: billbears
Where does the consitution restrict us from doing so?
44 posted on 04/30/2003 2:58:39 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Tailgunner Joe
In its National Strategy for Combating Terrorism (Feb. 2003) the White House outlined a policy that calls for "direct and continuous actions against terrorist groups, the cumulative effect of which will initially disrupt, over time degrade, and ultimately destroy the terrorist organizations." The plan also recognizes that "the more frequently and relentlessly we strike the terrorists across all fronts, using all the tools of statecraft, the more effective we will be."
As I see it, the statements below are not the idea of the Bush Administration. Thank God.

If this is to be the measure of an effective counter-terror policy, then the Bush Administration must begin to apply its tenets more aggressively against the increasing number of terrorist organizations—either indigenous groups with global reach or international entities such as Hizballah, Islamic Jihad, or al-Qaeda – that have begun to operate in the Western Hemisphere with the acquiescence of various anti-U.S. regimes.
Terrorism isn't increasing. Two nations have been neutralized and according to the Bush Doctrine; the terrorist threat must be lower now.

The current governments of Brazil (da Silva), Cuba (Castro), and Venezuela (Chavez) are each home to the sort of anti-American fervor that forms the foundation for most terrorist safehavens. Even more worrisome, they stand poised to remake South America in their image through a well-organized strategy that brings to power -- via legitimate means (i.e. elections) -- other leftist leaders whose political agendas and support for terrorist organizations will undermine U.S. interests and the overall security of the Western Hemisphere. There will be serious long-term implications if the U.S. does not develop a more efficacious strategic policy to deal with the growing influence of these communist devotees.
Please, one war on ___ at a time. Now they want a war on communism! (something we've spent 50 years or more trying to avoid!)

On 7 August 2002 Former National Security Council member and senior fellow at the Hudson Institute, Dr. Constantine Menges wrote in the Washington Times that a "Castro-Chavez-da Silva" axis could directly threaten the security of the United States. Among other points, he argued that this axis would link "43 years of Fidel Castro’s political warfare against the [U.S.] with the oil wealth of Venezuela and the nuclear weapons/ballistic missile and economic potential of Brazil."
A man in his seventys and a beret wearing matching parrot donning lefty is not a threat to the United States. Unless of course you want them as a threat!

Dr. Menges has identified the Brazilian leader Luiz Inacio "Lula" da Silva as a key player in the axis and he has warned that Lula’s stewardship of the Forum of Sao Paolo – the progeny of Castro’s "Tricontinental Congress" which helped transnational terrorist organizations synchronize their efforts during the late 1960’s to undermine U.S. national security– will help pro-Castro candidates mount strong political campaigns throughout South America. Furthermore, he notes in a 10 December 2002 Washington Times article that the Forum of Sao Paulo includes "all the communist and radical political parties and armed communist terrorist organizations of Latin America together with terrorist groups from Europe (IRA, ETA) and the Middle East (PFLP-GC), as well as participants from Iraq, Libya, Cuba and other state sponsors of terrorism."
Transnational terrorism by Castro 40 years ago? Can someone offer a hilite?

Similarly, the Chairman of the House International Relations Committee Henry Hyde, in a letter to President Bush dated 24 October 2002, described Lula da Silva as a "pro-Castro radical" and cautioned that a new "axis of evil TM in the Americas" could be afoot. Congressman Hyde also detailed Brazil’s experiment with a nuclear weapons program (1965-1994) and its success in creating a "30 kiloton nuclear bomb, which could be quickly tested if the program were revived." In all likelihood this will occur if Lula’s stated intention to withdraw Brazil from the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) is not contravened sharply by the United States.

President da Silva’s involvement with the Forum of Sao Paolo may also explain his refusal to classify the Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarias de Colombia (FARC) – a communist insurgency whose goal it is to destroy the democratically elected government of President Alvaro Uribe – a terrorist organization. Instead, on 4 March 2003 the Latin American Weekly Report noted that Brazil’s Foreign Minister Celso Amorim felt that labeling the FARC a terrorist organization was more about "semantics" than terrorism. Not so for Colombia’s embattled President, who could not disagree more with the Brazilian government’s position. He told United Press International on 7 March 2003 that it is more than appropriate to designate as "terrorists" those groups that detonate car bombs. "It is not a value judgment," he argued, "it is terrorism."
That looks like Brazil's problem to me.

As for Fidel Castro, it is important to mention his trip to the Islamic Republic of Iran in May 2001 where, according to Agence France Presse, he declared that "Iran and Cuba, in cooperation with each other, can bring America to its knees." Could this portend the formation of a terrorist-WMD nexus in the Western Hemisphere?
Do pork rinds turn into pigs if you sprinkle water on them?

It is a well established fact that Iran funds, trains, and provides safehaven for notorious terrorist organizations Hizballah, Hamas, and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad – an entity that Attorney General John Ashcroft has described separately as "one of the most violent terrorist organizations in the world." It is also recognized that Iran is trying to acquire a nuclear weapons capability. The Washington Post reported on 10 March 2003 that by 2005 Iran could "be capable of producing enough enriched uranium for several nuclear bombs each year." Therefore, any affiliation between Cuba and Iran should be treated as a direct threat to the security of the United States. It may also forewarn of the likelihood that pro-Castro leaders – some of whom already show a tolerance for terrorist organizations and a penchant for nuclear weaponry – will join with other state sponsors of terrorism around the world to threaten the security of the United States.
[Undistributed Middle]

Finally, the rule of Venezuela’s current President Hugo Chavez is even more problematic now that he has, for all intents and purposes, an ally in ‘Lula’ da Silva. In the same aforesaid October 2002 letter to President Bush, Congressman Henry Hyde also warned that Chavez’s rule threatens "the well-being and security of people in neighboring democratic countries as well as to the United States." He charged that Hugo Chavez "forged public alliances with states sponsors of terrorism including Cuba, Iraq, and Iran…" and "supported terrorist organizations" including the FARC in Colombia.

There is a larger point to make regarding the subject of state-sponsorship of terrorism. Many Western Hemispheric states employ condemnatory language to distance themselves from specific acts of terror while the groups that are responsible for such ignoble behavior escape serious rebuke. It has become an internationally accepted practice to exploit vacuous rhetoric in such a manner that a state can appear "with" the United States while acting "against" its struggle to root out terrorists. The United States must insist that opposition to terrorism begin with a denouncement of those who carry out such acts. Without taking this basic first step any subsequent action to combat international terrorism will be disingenuous.
We did this "first step" long ago.

For instance, the Consultation of Ministers of Foreign Affairs of the Organization of American States met on 21 September 2001 to reaffirm "the absolute rejection by the people and governments of the Americas of terrorists acts and activities, which endanger democracy and the security of the states of the Hemisphere."

Almost one month later, on 15 October 2001, the Inter-American Committee Against Terrorism (CICTE) promulgated a declaration that expressed its "most vigorous condemnation of the terrorist acts that occurred on the United States territory" on 11 September 2001.

The Inter-American Convention Against Terrorism (adopted on 3 June 2002) reaffirms two interesting points. It says that the parties (including Brazil and Venezuela) recognize "the need to adopt effective steps in the inter-American system to prevent, punish, and eliminate terrorism through the broadest cooperation." Furthermore, its expresses the "commitment of the states to prevent, combat, punish and eliminate terrorism."
Anyone else paranoid when good things are said?

The aforementioned examples constitute a counter-terror paradigm that is weak and illusory. No state can be permitted to focus the majority of its attention and resources on the symptoms rather than the sources of the terrorist problem. Moreover, there is a dearth of anti-terror phraseology to address the problem of regimes that support terrorist groups in other countries. The Convention only exhorts each state to deny sanction to terrorist groups "within their territories" (read: "within their [respective] territories").
Oh whatever.

The United States is now at a crossroads.
What else is new.

First, the United States must buck what is becoming a trend in the Western Hemisphere; namely, that democratic means are being manipulated by leftist leaders to preclude the United States from affecting or supporting "regime change," lest it appear to subvert the democratic process. To this end, the removal of Fidel Castro from power could provide a benchmark against which all pro-Castro leaders can judge their future behavior.
But he said the democracy was legitimate. Make up yer mind!

Moreover, a congressionally approved regime change in Cuba could at this moment accomplish three other important tasks: One, Fidel Castro’s absence would have a detumescent effect on those leftists who exhibit a penchant for Castro-ism. Two, a positive regime change would eliminate Fidel Castro’s ideational inspiration, which serves as the greatest source of intellectual, ideological, and political anti-Americanism in the region. Three, the United States would destroy one of the most powerful logistical infrastructures for supporting terrorist movements. Cuba’s military and intelligence advisors would no longer be able to assist anti-U.S. regimes or terrorist organizations.
Whose congress?

Second, The United States must demand that Brazil abandon any material attempt to obtain weapons of mass destruction. Any evidence to the contrary should result in devastating consequences. On the terror front, the United States can test the veracity of Brazil’s numerous pledges to fight terrorism by requesting an unequivocal denunciation of the FARC and an exhibition of the appropriate legal measures to support this rhetorical decision.
[argumentum ad baculum, (Appeal to Force) ]

Third, without Fidel Castro’s intellectual, ideological, and political influence, Hugo Chavez would assume the status of an unimpressive despot akin to Saddam Hussein’s Yasser Arafat. At that point he might be more easily contained until a future date when the people of Venezuela can be encouraged to elect someone more competent to lead that great country.
Let them decide what their self-interest is (if they can).

Unless the United States government adopts a coherent Western Hemispheric strategy to counter the influence of the Castro- da Silva-Chavez tripartite, one can expect to witness the growth of this "axis" and a concomitant rise in terrorist related activity in the region. As an example of things to come the Washington Times reported on 7 April 2003 that Al Qaeda terrorists had plans to enter the United States illegally through Mexico to carry our attacks against various targets. It is wholly conceivable that these terrorists could one day commence operations from secure locations in the Western Hemisphere and given enough time they may even attain a nuclear weapons capability courtesy of an anti-U.S. regime.
That is a border security problem.

To borrow a phrase from the Bush Doctrine: "…the United States cannot remain idle while dangers gather."
[argumentum ad verecundiam, (Appeal to Authority)]



45 posted on 04/30/2003 4:44:48 PM PDT by aSkeptic (Hi)
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To: aSkeptic
Terrorism isn't increasing.

So, I guess we should just call it a day, huh? We solved that little terrorism problem good!

Now they want a war on communism! (something we've spent 50 years or more trying to avoid!)

Democrats tried to avoid it while Republicans fought it. Did you happen to miss Korea and VietNam? What do you think those wars were about?

Let them decide what their self-interest is

They have descided it's in their self interest to sponsor terrorism and be our enemies. Now we must decide what is in our best interests.

46 posted on 05/01/2003 11:48:51 AM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Terrorism isn't increasing.
So, I guess we should just call it a day, huh? We solved that little terrorism problem good!
I'm glad you agree.

Now they want a war on communism! (something we've spent 50 years or more trying to avoid!)
Democrats tried to avoid it while Republicans fought it. Did you happen to miss Korea and VietNam? What do you think those wars were about?
That was before my time. Care to be the first person I have ever talked with to give a positive view about the result of VietNam? (I was thinking of nukes and the cold war in the root repy). NK is annother matter though..

Let them decide what their self-interest is
They have descided it's in their self interest to sponsor terrorism and be our enemies. Now we must decide what is in our best interests.
If you'd ask me I'd say: monitor the boarders, stop the invaders, and throw out all forigners carrying an expired VISA.

47 posted on 05/01/2003 2:44:14 PM PDT by aSkeptic (Hi)
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To: aSkeptic
If you'd ask me I'd say: monitor the boarders, stop the invaders, and throw out all forigners carrying an expired VISA.

Why wait around for something to happen? Some of us would rather "stop the invaders" in their own countries before they attempt to deliver WMD to our friends and loved ones.

48 posted on 05/02/2003 12:33:36 PM PDT by mac_truck (the best defense is a good offense)
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To: mac_truck
Why wait around for something to happen? Some of us would rather "stop the invaders" in their own countries before they attempt to deliver WMD to our friends and loved ones.
1. Searching for suspects on a foreign turf is harder than watching out for people illegally crossing the boarder (who are suspect by default). If the teleporter was a reality, I think I'd opine with you.
2. 9/11 and acts of similar intention were performed with common consumer objects. Is a passenger jet or fertilizer a WMD? Obviously it depends on who, why, what, where, AND when.
3.
Throwing out all foreigners on expired visas is doing something.
4. Current maintenance on 2 countries, and a war on 5 or more other countries will spread our military resources thinly. That could make us vulnerable
to opportunistic superpowers to be.
5. War is damn serious business. We are the best at doing it with the fewest casualties but it doesn't change how disruptive it is. I wish to conserve the good image of the USA.







49 posted on 05/03/2003 8:58:46 AM PDT by aSkeptic (Hi)
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To: aSkeptic
1) Difficult but not impossible. No one said asymetric warfare was "easy".

2) 9/11 proves that waiting for the bad guys to show up at your door step doesn't work by itself.

3) How many of the 19 were here legally? Waiting for visas to expire is not doing something.

4) The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. We're just getting started. Our enemies better get used to it.

5) War is disruptive? If you are referring to those who threaten our existance, lets hope so.

My advise to you is "take the blue pill..."

50 posted on 05/03/2003 1:23:15 PM PDT by mac_truck
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