[Vineyard]

This is worse than an urban legend. And this sort of fraud has been going on for decades.

Someone claims to have an invention that makes more energy than it consumes, and asks for a patent. The patent office, aware of various laws of physics, recognizes that energy can not be created or destroyed, but converted in various forms, and that no one has found a way to make the third law of thermodynamics (entropy of the universe is increasing)null and void ... refuses to issue a patent - because to do so would be to suggest that the Patent Office believes that the 3rd law of thermodynamics is no longer valid.

The "inventor" then claims his rights are violated ... issues conspiracy alerts (put on tin foil hats please!) ... and asks for a letter righting campaign to the Patent Office.

As said before ... this has been going on for DECADES.

I figure that if someone HAD discovered a new principle - that they would have gone further to make an operational model that would work for hours or days ... and then they could take the working model to the Patent Office and insist on getting a patent. But the "inventor" claims that to make a fully operational model would place their intellectual property rights at risk ... so they don't finish the development of a working model. (Adjust tin foi please.)

Problem is, the "test models" use a motor (energy input) to set a rotor spinning. The brief power output from the model is less than the energy inputted by the motor. These "inventions" have been around for decades. They don't work. Any one with an engineering degree or physics degree can provide the equations to show why the concepts are flawed ... and never has an "inventor" ever proven his concepts are based on ANY sound physics principles, never have they developed a working model.

But our general public, poorly educated in scientific principles, might be swayed into believing that the poor "inventor" is oppressed by the horrible and mean Patent Office. (But it is all b.s.!)

Mike, B.S., M.S., P.E.

[Diogenesis]

Actually these DO NOT involve rotary machines.
They are NOT urban legend.
Some HAVE been confirmed by several US labs
including the US Navy. and other agencies.

Furthermore, just because things have gone on improperly for decades
is no reason to continue it.

One last scientific matter.
Unless things have changed, you are also inacccurate about thermodynamics.
What you call the 3rd law is actually the 2nd.
The 3rd used to be: "you can't get out of the game".

[ppaul]

Mike:

You nailed it on the head, man.
I get sick of getting into discussions with people that degenerate into, "Well, Bush just wants to help his oil buddies. If he really wanted to save our natural resources, he'd support alternative energy legislation."

When you ask them why, during Carter, when the whole government was focused on it, no viable "alternative energy" solutions were forthcoming, they'll say something like, "Well, as soon as an invention or new technology came out that saved fuel or cut gas consumption, the oil companies would buy out the inventor to keep it off the market!" or some similar tripe.

Have you had similar experiences?