Posted on 05/01/2003 8:44:18 AM PDT by RJCogburn
All well and good, but the sum of your post is to simply define hedonism as irrational, without bothering to actually defend the proposition that hedonism is irrational, nevermind proving it. "Hedonism is irrational because it's irrational" is an answer of sorts, but not a particularly objective or rational answer, insofar as it's not much more than empty tautology.
No one decided this. It's what means.
What you said makes no sense at all, as you'll discover when you try to decipher it.
All you've said is that, to discover what my rational self-interest is, I must first discover what my rational self-interest is. Completely circular.
Oh, yeah, baby. Ayn Rand wants you!
Tell you what. Give me a quote where Ayn rand said that, I'll send you a million bucks. She never said we can't sacrifice others to our own end, or any other end. She said it was morally wrong to sacrifice others for any reason. She is certainly on record as one who pointed out how this is a most common practice, and one of the essential evils of this world.
Those second-hand souls who have never discovered the requirements of their own nature to live, survive, and enjoy their lives as the fruit of their own effort, that this is what they must do to know they are of value, and are justified in their existense, and that they really do deserver to enjoy their own life, of course will never understand how there is a difference between creating your own wealth and life, or bludgeoning some else and taking theirs.
There is no point in reasoning with those who have intentionally dulled the source of their own moral values, be refusing to identify and recognize their own nature. If you do not know the difference between moral values and "optimization of results," you do not even understand what objectivism, even in it most primitive form (as originally explicated by Ayn Rand) is about.
Not a bad book, huh? :-)
Essentially, r9etb spotted the basic problem in #25 - "The problem here is that objectivists expect us to accept their underlying assertions as true and absolute." Of course, that's true of all systems of morality and ethics - all of them are based on unprovable assertions that must be taken as axiomatic for the system to work. If you happen to accept the axioms of objectivism, it'll work just fine. If not, it won't, and there's no objective (sorry) way to make it work. Rand's own prescription to "check your premises" works against her in this regard, unfortunately.
Yep. I skip that every time :-)
Pay up, Hank.
For the third time in this very thread, I give you Ayn Rand's very own words: 3. Man every man is an end in himself, not the means to the ends of others. He must exist for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself. The pursuit of his own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life.
I've found on these threads that Rand's words are a source of extreme discomfort to those who are forced to logically defend them.
The problem here is: how do you logically prove that it's wrong to sacrifice others to ourselves, when there is ample evidence to the contrary?
You know, I actually forced myself to plow through it once. If you recall, Rand had the Dagney Taggart's taxi driver chuckle appreciatively after Galt left the air -- I had to conclude that any author who can make somebody chuckle after that has a rather tenuous grasp of human nature.
Well, I think it was more than that, but its what it was to you that matters in this case.
Let me quote Ayn Rand herself:
I am profoundly opposed to the philosophy of hedonism. Hedonism is the doctrine which holds that the good is whatever gives you pleasure and, therefore, pleasure is the standard of morality. Objectisim holds that the good must be defined by a rational standard of value, that pleasure is not a first cause, but only a consequence, that only the pleasure which proceeds from a rational value of judgment can be regarded as moral, that pleasure, as such, is not a guide to action nor a standard of morality. To say that pleasure should be the standard of morality simply means that whichever values you happen to have chosen, consciousnly or subconsciously, rationally or irrationally, are right and moral. This means that your are to be guided by chance feelings, emotions and whims, not by your mind... (From her Playboy inteview; I do not know what year.)
Hank
Well yes, it is absolute, self interests are a characteristic of individual humans. Whether, or not any other human is present doesn't change the fact that a man has self interests. The self interests are observable as a universal characteristic of men. The method of preserving those self interests is the moral code and it's guiding principles.
" The scientific evidence strongly suggests that biological evolution is a real phenomenon. As we can easily observe, one of the primary drivers in biological evolution is the initiation of force. Success in initiating force leads to better predators. Success in avoiding extinction at the hands of predators -- by a variety of methods -- leads to better prey. Note that the "goal" of this process is not so much the good of the individual, but instead passing along successful genes to subsequent generations -- the good of the species, in other words. If we were to follow Rand's recommendation, we would have to conclude that man's highest moral goal would be some version of Social Darwinism."
Evolution, Darwinism and nature has no moral guide. It is morally neutral. It's rules are fundamentally those of physics. Moral codes and the principles they are founded on are created by rational beings. Social Darwinism is not Randian and definitely does not preserve the nature of man. It creates an artificial order in the world of men, where one , or a small group of men impose their will and promote their own interests and subvert the others by coercion. Rand's code disallows that fundamentally.
The use of coercion to promote one's interests at the expense of others does not promote any interest of mankind, but the interests of the particular men that weild the most effective forms of coercion. Rand pointed out that this is wrong. She wasn't the first; she just elaborated on it.
Absolutely not. Most have the equipment, but do not use it at all, or if they do, not very well. However, the principles of 'self-interest' are not a matter of subjective choice, in other words, the kind of things that are good for human beings and the kind that are not, so, just as one of our physical requirements is food, the kind of food that is correct or good or enjoyable by each individual is different.
What if it is in my rational self interest to become a dictatorial superman? Is my reasoning incorrect?
How can something impossible be in anyone's self-interest? However, you ought to be a dictatorial superman in one respect, you ought to ruthlessly rule your own life, and allow no one else to dictate any apsect of it. That would be in your self-interest.
Hank
A man might prefer to eat Cake for every meal, but that would not be in his rational self-interest or happiness.
Objectivism is quite the opposite of 'hedonism'.
Your understanding of this seems quite off-base.
I propose that "conservatives" who object to Rand do so purely on the basis of her atheism . . . religious people who feel that morality is not, can not be a 'rational' thing but is a gift from god.
To boil it down, they feel that 'individualism' is bad, because individuals should surrender their will to the authority of god.
This is just the same old rift between the 'social' conservatives and the 'economic' conservatives.
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