Hyping Hydrogen: The Energy Scam

CNSNEWS ^ | May 07, 2003 | Alan Caruba

[Regulator]

These idiots pining away for hydrogen cars who are violently anti-nuke

I agree. A little cognitive dissonance there. A lot of them live in L.A., which gets a significant amount of power from the Palo Verde Nuclear Generating plant West of Phoenix.

Hasn't gone critical yet. :^)

[blanknoone]

First, build that star wars...although I would not limit it to space based just yet, I think some ground based (especially theater level) components are still worth further exploring.
Second, regardless of Caruba's credentials or lack thereof, he is raising a legitimate issue, that Hydrogen is not a cure all for dependence on oil. There are not vast underground reserves of hydrogen waiting to be discovered and exploited. It will take energy to make the H2. And that energy will have to come from somewhere. And we ain't been building nuke plants and hydro dams.

[Toddsterpatriot]

That's true with nearly every energy source. Internal combustion energy efficiency is what? Something less than 50%. A conventional coal-fired boiler is something less than 45%. Even the latest gas turbine co-generation plants a pushing it to get much above 50%.

So, we burn some fuel, inefficiently, to create H2 and then burn the H2 to, inefficiently, move an automobile or to generate electricity? Sounds rather inefficient.

[Shermy]

I posted this more for the commentary on hype rather than on Hydrogen. Most general interest articles on H2 mention it as a replacement for fossil fuels. You correctly recognize that it is not.

Replacement it is not. I've noticed more and more usage of natural gas in large transportation vehicles in urban areas. The efficiency of burning NG straight as opposed to burning H extracted from it, I haven't seen anything on that.

Places like Italy are turning to NG - 20% of new vehicles there run on it.

A convenience and economy of hydrogen is that one "fuel" will be universal - rather than the several we have now. Well, maybe I underestimate American salesmanship and they'll invent a "regular" and "premium."

[Regulator]

Good idea. But why go to space? Build one in your super-duper back yard singularity containment device.

And don't let the cat near it.

[Poohbah]

Actually, if Palo Verde hasn't gone critical yet, it hasn't generated any electricity yet.

When a reactor is said to be "critical," that means that the reactivity has exceeded the "critical" level needed to ensure that the reaction is self-sustaining.

[Jack of all Trades]

Bumper sticker: Nuke Global Warming

[Toddsterpatriot]

Good idea. But why go to space?

That's where all the free hydrogen is. In your back yard you'd get Oxygen and Nitrogen, not much free hydrogen in the atmosphere.

[Shermy]

Attack of the scientifically illiterate.

Ouch!

Hydrogen requires a source of energy.

So does gasoline - oil. Natrual gas and coal burned straight do not of course.

If you are talking about replacing any significant number of fossil-fueled vehicles with hydrogen vehicles, you are going to need an energy source that is not a gimmick and is much cheaper than current methods of generating electricity.

When mention is made of NG, coal, even oil, the hydrogen is cracked right from them.

In other words, hydrogen cars will make sense when you have a fusion reactor in your garage.

Not if cracked from the three above. We need not be restrictive - H can be derived from electrolysis supported from Nuclear power and Hydro-electric "waste" energy (Which is substantial since electricity can't be effectively stored...unless it's "converted" to hydrogen!)

Until you realize that you are just going to sound stupid to people who understand basic math.

How do you think you sound to the natural gas and other industries pushing this?

Bush should have spent that money teaching science so that this issue will go away.

But he didn't - what does that tell you? BTW, check out energy sites re: explosion in NG exploration. Also, those quietly discussed Alaskan NG pipeline bills in Congress for starters.

[Waco]

While considering the use of energy to create energy, couldn't some sort of reverse process be used to alter natural gas reserves (huge) to make a liquid fuel (gasoline?) What would the efficiency be, of this? Wondering....

[Regulator]

that Hydrogen is not a cure all for dependence on oil

Probably not. But Anything that gets us out of NutLand is worth looking into. Even the current Energy Secretary is on board with that one. And even if it CAN'T be done effectively....shhhh. Don't tell the Arabs. They'll think we can do it, and maybe start to clean up their act.

In the 1970's, when OPEC was roaring, Luis Echeverria, the President of Mexico, warned OPEC that "the Americans will create a technological solution" to get off of oil if they (OPEC) raised the price too high. It doesn't matter if he was right, wrong, or just scared. If it influenced their cartel's behavior positively...mission accomplished.

I guess we can't tell them about our Zero-Point Energy Motorcycles yet...

[Regulator]

Yeah, yeah, I was just using the popular vernacular. So sue me. By the way, whattya think about using slow neutron reactors for the home??

[Shermy]

And this reduces our dependence on oil how????

1. They compete with oil.

2. We got a lot of NG and coal.

[Regulator]

Bob Bussard Rides Again

[kidd]

I worked at International Fuel Cells for 5 years where I worked with phosphoric acid fuel cells (PAFCs) and molten carbonate fuel cells (MCFCs). I also had a short exposure to polymeric membrane fuel cells (or PEM fuel cells) at the Treadwell Corporation.

I mostly agree with the author of the article. Fuel cells are a wonderful specialty power source. They are perfect for situations where emmisions are a problem (Los Angeles busses, indoor applications, space applications, etc), where quiet operation is imperative (military applications), or where a source of hydrogen is readily available (industry).

However, as a primary engine for general use, such as automobiles, fuel cells are expensive, finicky, delicate, respond poorly to a need for acceleration power, are damaged by exposure to sub-freezing temperatures and have a limited life of less than five years.

You simply cannot beat the energy density and relatively cheap availability of gasoline, as well as the durability and responsiveness of an internal combustion engine.

Hopefully, only economics will force us to switch to another fuel for cars. If we do have to switch, it'll either be LNG, gasified coal or ethanol.

[Toddsterpatriot]

So does gasoline - oil. Natrual gas and coal burned straight do not of course.

The point is a million barrels of oil produces several hundred thousand barrels of fuel. If you "crack" hydrogen from oil, coal, NG you lose the energy from the carbon and so you'd need several times more oil to get the same energy.

The only source of hydrogen that makes sense is nuclear.

[Malsua]

Use Nuclear power to produce the hydrogen.

No fuss, no muss and it's very clean.

[Toddsterpatriot]

We got a lot of NG and coal.

So, coal gasification and then separate the H2 out of the gas?

Where do you get the energy for these processes? Burn the coal? Oh no, CO2. Sounds like we need more strip mines too.

[hopespringseternal]

When mention is made of NG, coal, even oil, the hydrogen is cracked right from them.

This is like explaining calculus to a chimp. Why don't you figure out the economics of the thing, go into business and become the next Rockefeller? Hmm?

Work out a businesss plan. Figure out how much you will have to charge for hydrogen.

But you won't. You will just rant ignorantly on, and vote for congressman who are just as ignorant. They will raise taxes to fund this nonsense, which will never work and just lower the standard of living for all of us.

If you can't write up a business plan and make money on it, then it is a bad idea you should just drop. If you can make money on it, go do it and quit talking about it before someone else beats you to it.

[Dahoser]

Maybe the Easter bunny can fart it out.

If it's any help, this character farts helium...