More had better = less

The Post Standard ^ | 5-10-03 | Michelle Breidenbach

[Kudsman]

Bids for party's line may live, die by living wage Working Families Party will make failed ordinance an issue in endorsements. May 10, 2003

By Michelle Breidenbach Staff writer

As Syracuse common councilors cast their votes on a living wage ordinance one year ago, members of the Working Families political party wore stickers that said in simple black-and-white type: "We will not forget."

The measure failed by a vote of 6-3. And today, the Working Families Party, which supported the ordinance, will remember.

Councilors who voted no will have some explaining to do as they appear before party leaders in interviews that start today for the Working Families Party line on the November ballot, said Rick Oppedisano, chairman of the party's Central New York Chapter.

The living wage ordinance up for a vote last year would have created a minimum wage of $8.96 an hour - $10.58 for workers who receive no benefits - for all city employees and employees of organizations that do more than $20,000 worth of business with the city.

Democratic Councilors Marty Masterpole, Mike Atkins and Bill Simmons, who face re-election this year, signed a pledge to support the living wage, then voted against it.

"We're going to ask point-blank, 'Why would you pledge to do something and then not?'" Oppedisano said.

The Working Families Party, which typically cross-endorses Democratic candidates, is in a position this year to challenge councilors who opposed the party's No.1 goal last year. The party can support an opponent, or support no one, Oppedisano said, adding that he will go into the interviews with an open mind.

Today, Masterpole and challenger Pat Hogan, also a Democrat, are scheduled to be interviewed by party members. Masterpole has served one term. Hogan is the city's former deputy parks and recreation director.

Masterpole said he does support a living wage, but the measure that came up for a vote would have conflicted with the city charter. For example, he said, he feared the ordinance would not apply to employees appointed by the mayor who are not subject to collective bargaining. Masterpole also felt the council could not legally legislate salaries that could affect future bargaining agreements.

"Fundamentally, I am in support of the living wage," Masterpole said. "Of course, I want people to earn a living without having to use social services or any of those programs. But the way it's implemented is very important."

Atkins has not asked for the party's endorsement. But Democrat Tom Seals, a retired Syracuse police officer, is considering a challenge. And Republican Melody Holmes, a staff assistant at SUNY Syracuse Educational Opportunity Center, has asked for an endorsement interview.

Simmons does not face opposition. He has not asked for an interview and has not decided whether he will. Simmons also said he supports the concept of a minimum wage, but had some questions about the financial impact it would have on the city.

[Kudsman]

The Socialists met in Ann Arbor on March 29 & 30, 2003 to revise/formulate a national strategy. From the accounts I have read reviewing their minutes, they are extremely dissatisfied with alliance / representation of the Demonrats. Remember goal #15 of the commies: 15th Goal Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States. Now also remember the Federal Board of Elections just exempted the Socialist Party from any donor reporting requirements for the next 6 years. Next know that they see control of Washington does not require a majority of any one party. Rather control can be achieved by a vocal, persistent minority of both parties. (Refer to court nominees and tax cut issues currently on going). Therefore what this story shows is that the Socialist have a renewed zeal in gaining control. Because Masterpole didn’t support increased government mandated redistribution he is to be ditched in favor of a lackey. That in and of itself is not a major surprise and in an adversarial way I admire their ability to command adherence. What is disgusting is that because Dems aren’t advancing their agenda as completely as they want they are going to target increasing the ranks of RINOs. Why else would Ms. Holmes be encouraged to seek endorsement. So more socialist Democrats and more Rino commies better funded by __________ (Fill in the blank with your fav America haters) REQUIRES more grilling of any Rino seeking CP backing. This will ensure in actuality less Rino representatives and more Republican representatives at the local levels. This is important if conservatives are to become pro-active rather than remain reactive. Because as we all know Politics boils down to local control. Please fight to elect Conservatives locally. They are what influence Policy all the way to the top.

[Kudsman]

Being a union steward for a large national gooberment company, if there is one thing I can attest to its the strength of solidarity that gives some power to the union. If all these socialist groups are united in their driven for getting socialists elected locally regardless of party affiliation we need to act united also. There is alot of conservative people on this forum that can't wait to tear ech other down over single issses they may not agree with. We can accomplish much more if we start acting in concert and stop all the bickering. Take a lesson from the enemy.

[Kudsman]

"We're going to ask point-blank, 'Why would you pledge to do something and then not?'" Oppedisano said. Sounds good. We need to start demanding the same from our nominees.

Masterpole also felt the council could not legally legislate salaries that could affect future bargaining agreements. A very principled and true position but the commies don't care, he is to be targeted for defeated probably by the WFP.

[Common Tator]

It is no problem for companies. Most of the citizens in the South will not vote for a union or support a union. That is why jobs are leaving the north in huge quantities and have been created in the south or other nations. As the economy recovers even more employers in states like New York Pa, Ohio, Indiana, and Ill will move to the South or to other nations. P.S. they won't take their workers with them. Those that don't move will have to compete with southern factories. When they are unable to do so they will close.

The Socialist attitudes of the rust belt are self fixing. Young people are leaving, and the older ones are dying. The rust belt is history. Its past as a fermenting grounds for socialists are over. It is no longer fermenting. It is just turning to vinegar.

[Kudsman]

Most of the citizens in the South will not vote for a union or support a union.

That is because the involvement of unions has been perverted by the hard left to include union support of all goals sought by the left. Oraganized labor has made great advances in working conditions, safety, reducing discrimination, limiting unjust discipline and the concept of a fair days wage for a fair days work. The good of these progresses has been overshadowed by the bad of overstepping bounds and then being demonized for it by the powerful. Rightly so I may add.

That is why jobs are leaving the north in huge quantities and have been created in the south or other nations.

That is not the sole reason. A few others include over-regulation, excessive taxation, state mandated insurance edicts, resricting land usage, and an overzealous legal system ready to sue for any reason.

move to the South or to other nations. A move to the south will move the "fermenting" grounds also. Hence my urging folks to get active now, early on, while we can still be proactive. Please pemit me to use an analogy. Any business is like a body. The management representing the head. The workers the torso,limbs, & muscle. The infrastructure the skeleton. The capital and R&D the life blood and major organs. As a complete unit the whole functions smoothly and efficiently. Remove or degrade any one to the point of uselessness and the whole body becomes terminal. IOW business cannot reach it's highest potential without a healthy, happy, educated, mobile workforce.

As far as business relocating to another country, the consumer in a supply and demand market is still the deciding factor of any product's viability. If I choose to not buy a product due to its origin and wish to support a higher cost item at equivalent or higher quality made locally then the foreign business will suffer falling demand leading to overstocked inventories, leading to price discounting, leading to declining profitability, leading to layoffs, the whole viscious cycle again. The only thing that will reverse that is State intervention accomplished on the backs of all citizens. I am in the battlefield with liberal automatons on a regular basis trying to even the playing field and get the radical unionists to see the folly of not working with coporate leadership on EVERY workplace issue. Why? Because to do nothing accomplishes nothing.

Thank you for your comments and perspective. I am not posting this to turn it into a business vs. union issue however. I use it to point out that the socialists are moving forward not only on the social front but the economic front as well. To overcome voter apathy we need to have our nominees be as attractive to the part of the population that thinks as an organised voice. This will help us to further our influence and appeal also. TCN and I offer all this as my opinion not fact. Based solely on observation and experience. If (and I'm sure I have) flawed in any part of my analysis I want anyone that thinks so to feel free and correct me. I love to learn and that which doesn't kill me........

[Jhoffa_]

As a complete unit the whole functions smoothly and efficiently. Remove or degrade any one to the point of uselessness and the whole body becomes terminal. IOW business cannot reach it's highest potential without a healthy, happy, educated, mobile workforce.

I don't agree..

I think most manufacturing jobs could easily be performed by trained monkeys and tech could go to India without major problems.

The problem as I see it is, what Americans employed in these positions are going to do when the jobs leave?

You can either erect trade barriers and empower the unions, or you can allow these positions to go offshore in the hope that Americans will migrate to the service industry or something similar that is domestic by nature.

While a "healthy, happy, educated, mobile workforce" is desireable, I don't think it's a necessity by any means.

[Kudsman]

Hello Sir, Did you know there is alot of people speculating as to your whereabouts? LOL. Seriously though thanks for weighing in. I hear you but I do want to take issue with I think most manufacturing jobs could easily be performed by trained monkeys.

Could it happen? Possibly. Would it be productive? To a certain extent. Juxtapose a trained monkey with someone that takes pride in a job well done and is happy with what they are doing. Which one would work safer? More efficient? Give higher quality? Be able to learn new skills, advance and cross train? Teach? Recognize a problem before it became a disaster? Be able to communicate new ideas and methods? And most importantly find the spark to one day maybe become an entrepreneur themselves? I would take a human anyday. The smartest ones I could find.

The problem as I see it is, what Americans employed in these positions are going to do when the jobs leave?

Indeed. This is the MOST distressing question and I wish I had the answer. I guess each individual is going to have to find their own answer or be forcibly "employed" by the State. (Welfare/Workfare and Prison systems ring any bells?)

This leads to the other factor of employing monkeys vs humans (I'm kinda partial to the USA version myself). The beauty of a job is that it necessitates other jobs. The monkey may work the line and insert widget A into widget B but does the business begin and end there? No. Someone brought the "raw material" (widget A) from point X to where the monkey picks it up. Work is defined physically as the amount of energy required to move a certain mass over a certain distance. Therfore some work was done before monkey boy started working. This I submit is your friendly, local (maybe company) over the road/rail hauler. To pay (assuming there is any) monkey boy you will need a clerical person or computer program, (which I think you would have an interest in), since there will be work involved. If monkey boy works for any length of time he will need to relieve himself somewhere unless he is hooked to a facility such as cattle might be. A custodial staff member might want to have some duties along here or its going to get pretty rank pretty fast. And this will require work as well as pay. I could go on and on but I think you get the point. Remove any part of the body and it becomes terminal. Starting as a ripple and increasing exponentially until when? Infinity or oblivion. How do you reverse this? Calm the ripple. Boycott anything Chinese or Mexican. Insist retailers carry MADE IN USA (or coalition if you prefer)products. Purchase those products. Rejoice in the fact that your purchase just helped prolong our way of life.

If you are American you realise that WAR was declared on us on September 11th 2001. You also know this war is not over. When you fight a war if you fail to utilize every WEAPON to its fullest advantage you run the risk of losing. For those of you whose knee just hit the table and cant wait to flame me I am not advocating the use of nukes. I believe their greatest advantage is still and will always be deterrence. Rather I am suggesting the United States economy. We know what we are capable of. Anything. We possess the one way to strengthen it. If we remain united as a country, (allowing for our dissenters because believe it not they do serve our ultimate goals- an free, heard, harmonious society), the sky (and space) is the limit. Just some thoughts. Sorry I'm so long winded but thats just me. L8tr.

[Jhoffa_]

Which one would work safer? More efficient? Give higher quality? Be able to learn new skills, advance and cross train? Teach? Recognize a problem before it became a disaster? Be able to communicate new ideas and methods? And most importantly find the spark to one day maybe become an entrepreneur themselves? I would take a human anyday. The smartest ones I could find.

All that's true of course.. But, I honestly don't think most of it matters to a company moving overseas.

Automated processes, no government stranglehold, no tort happy lawyers and a huge & inexpensive labor pool go unnoticed because you are describing an ideal situation from a third person perspective. A perspective I would imagine that's largely ignored by company executives.

And I can understand their reasoning, I understand both sides of the argument actually. I don't have a solution for it though.

The beauty of a job is that it necessitates other jobs.

Oh, I agree.. When you say this, I think of manufacturers who make packaging for the product, marketers who display it on TV, warehouses who store trucks that deliver it and stores who sell it..

Again though, for an executive.. just more potential for labor savings if you can offshore it.

It's a paradox and I honestly don't know what the answer is. But I agree, it's a problem.

[Kudsman]

Again though, for an executive.. just more potential for labor savings if you can offshore it.

If I may be so bold. My personal battle against that is one executive no longer "welcomed" into my plans as a consumer. Case in point. I went to LOWES today. Twelve 1/4 inch, (I dont give a sh*t what that is in metric), offset mirror hangers with associated screws were required. Luckily two choices were available. Unfortunately neither was made by my countrymen. If that had been the case it would have been going to my house. I digress. The two choices were made in TAIWAN (yeah) or made by CHICOMS (boo, hiss). How you like my sound effects by the way? ;-0) Guess which one I now own, not rent.

[Kudsman]

Because I was allowed to make the choice I did not find it necessary to fill out a customer comment card requesting made in USA product. For this I also thank LOWES as they saved me work AND angst. What price peace of mind?

[Jhoffa_]

If I may be so bold. My personal battle against that is one executive no longer "welcomed" into my plans as a consumer.

True. When I want quality in a product (like a tool, that's a good example. I am an ex-auto body man and I have allot of high quality tools.) one of the factors I consider is who manufactured it.

However, I don't think that's going to be enough to keep Mrs. Joe Six Pack from buying clothing or any number of items manufactured overseas. With most shoppers and a majority of purchases, I think the price point is what counts.

What really sucks about this is I can imagine say.. oh, 5 companies that make a widget. All 5 are in competition for the widget market. Everything is fine.

Now, company #1 goes overseas and is now in a position to undercut companies 2-5 and force them out of business or overseas also.

As a Conservative, I don't know what to do about that, and I don't think voting with your wallet is going to be enough in the long run.

[Jhoffa_]

PS:

The sound effects were fine..

:)

[Jhoffa_]

PSS: Then, OTOH.. I don't think I am big on Tariff's and "protection" schemes either, because look at what you're "protecting"

It's "protecting" overlapping and altrenating layers of: high taxes, out of control regulations, tort-mad lawyers, greedy & overpaid union stooges who think they should all have a lear jet like the CEO because they put in their time at "the plant" and so on and so forth..

I don't think that's a good idea either. SO, as I said, I really don't know what the answer is.

But I think it would be wise at this point to entertain some suggestions. Either way this doesn't look good for America from here.

[Jhoffa_]

PSSS: And all these overlapping layers of garbage are artificially increasing the price of goods.

I don't want to "protect" that either. I want to eliminate it completely and let the market determine the resale prices, labor rates, benefits offered and such.

[Kudsman]

It's "protecting" overlapping and altrenating layers of: high taxes, out of control regulations, tort-mad lawyers, greedy & overpaid union stooges who think they should all have a lear jet like the CEO because they put in their time at "the plant" and so on and so forth..

I agree 100%. But it is still our corruption, our legal parasites, and our taxes. While it may not be perfect, it is still better than any other model out there and if we are proactive we can change/fix it. I agree on needing suggestions also. I wish a few friends would chime in. Brainstorming is always a positive. Truth #1076 in life's plan.

[Kudsman]

As a Conservative, I don't know what to do about that, and I don't think voting with your wallet is going to be enough in the long run.

Please don't think that is my total solution. It is just one action I can take but it is SOMETHING. As I stated earlier, I firmly believe to do nothing (such as the French) accomplishes nothing. Without conflict change will not occur. Status Quo is perpetuated by doing nothing. And I don't particularly like the status quo right now. It is changing though and it is because of sites like this as well as actions taken.

[Kudsman]

Sorry bump. I'm bumping this just to see if any of you folks that might be at work today and missed my discussion with FReepers Hoffa and Tator might have any constructive thoughts. As our discussion progressed I think we both realized the gravity of our situation. I'll check back later. If no one responds I'll assume it doesn't really matter and take a much needed vacation. I hope all you wonderful Mothers had a glorious day yesterday. BFN.