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1 posted on 05/11/2003 7:04:33 AM PDT by RJCogburn
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To: RJCogburn
I think God would differ on this issue. Ever heard of Sodom and Gomorrah? But a lot of people don't care what God thinks anymore. That is why we have abortion.
2 posted on 05/11/2003 7:11:44 AM PDT by buffyt (Can you say President Hillary, Mistress of Darkness? Me Neither!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
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To: RJCogburn
While no such intruder existed, they did discover Lawrence having sex with another man named Tyron Garner, then 31.

That isn't sex, that is sodomy.
3 posted on 05/11/2003 7:12:41 AM PDT by buffyt (Can you say President Hillary, Mistress of Darkness? Me Neither!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
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To: RJCogburn
laws against sodomy, adultery and incest should remain on the books largely to protect the institution of heterosexual marriage.

Laws against sodomy do nothing to protect marriage. As many married people commit sodomy as single people, so the cause and effect is specious.

Laws regarding incest exist to protect the overall gene pool, since children resulting from incestuous conception often magnify genetic defects that would be diluted from conception outside the bloodline. These laws have no effect on marriage, nor were they ever designed to.

The only laws dealing directly with heterosexual marriage are those regarding adultery, which, by definition, only exists outside marriage and can thus be considered a direct threat to the institution. Yet few states have laws against adultery any more, and the few that do enforce them so irregularly (if at all) as to render them moot.

God's laws, not the state's, should govern morality.

6 posted on 05/11/2003 7:20:50 AM PDT by IronJack
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To: RJCogburn
Anti-sodomy laws violate individual liberties

Laws against murder violate my individual liberties when I commute on the expressway every day.

Laws against Bank Robbery violate my individual liberty when I want money for free.

However, if I relabel "Sodomy" as "Sex", "Murder", as "Self-Expression", and "Bank Robbery" as "Do-it-yourself Withdrawal",I suppose I could make a case of the Law making me a victim.

7 posted on 05/11/2003 7:22:59 AM PDT by Gorzaloon (Contents may have settled during shipping, but this tagline contains the stated product weight.)
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To: RJCogburn

ISAIAH 3:9 The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. WOE unto their SOUL! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves.
10 posted on 05/11/2003 7:27:57 AM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: RJCogburn
Anti-sodomy laws violate individual liberties

Hell, anti-anything laws violate individual liberties.
By definition fercryingout loud!

Anti-murder laws violate individual liberties.
Anti-pedophilia laws violate individual liberties.
Anti-robbery laws violate individual liberties.
Anti-mugging laws violate individual liberties.
Anti-embezzlement laws violate individual liberties.
Anti-smoking laws violate individual liberties.
Anti-Second-Amendment laws violate individual liberties.
Etc.
Etc.

Cool.
The perverts perhaps are getting a glimpse (finally!) of the point that Santorum was trying to make?

11 posted on 05/11/2003 7:52:27 AM PDT by Publius6961 (Californians are as dumm as a sack of rocks)
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To: RJCogburn; Kevin Curry
Consenting to an evil deed makes it neither right nor tolerable. The Libertarians are advocating a form of infantilism: "I want, and therefore give me!"
17 posted on 05/11/2003 8:10:59 AM PDT by Cultural Jihad
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To: RJCogburn
I just want to state that prior to my common law marriage to my horse, Nelli, we were celibate. Of course there was a cousin of mine who co-mingled with a sheep prior to marriage, but then again he had had relations with 5 of his 12 daughters too.

Gotta go, I hear Nelli getting ready out in the barn.

21 posted on 05/11/2003 8:17:53 AM PDT by Doc Savage
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To: RJCogburn
By discussing and/or debating one implicitly admits that there is something to debate and/or discuss. There is not.The only thing your trash office holders understand is money and votes. At a minimum write your office holders and express your opposition. Next donate to those office seekers who will help suppress homosexuality and its expression.
32 posted on 05/11/2003 8:34:00 AM PDT by AEMILIUS PAULUS (Further, the statement assumed)
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To: RJCogburn
"The point is, this could happen to anyone," Chase says.

Actually, this could not happen to anyone, you nitwit.

33 posted on 05/11/2003 8:34:22 AM PDT by lodwick
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To: RJCogburn
Is it wrong? Yes. Should it be illegal? No, since big govt busting down doors for private acts between consenting adults is MORE wrong.
46 posted on 05/11/2003 9:09:02 AM PDT by Dan from Michigan ("You are fined one credit for a violation of the verbal morality statute." - Demolition Man)
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To: RJCogburn
Even though some conservatives want government to discourage non-procreative sex,

Which legislatures are pursuing bans on condoms and the pill?
48 posted on 05/11/2003 9:10:31 AM PDT by gitmo ("The course of this conflict is not known, yet its outcome is certain." GWB)
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To: RJCogburn
"At the time the Texas penal code was revised in 1972, heterosexual sodomy was removed as a criminal offense, as was bestiality."

I believe that this will be thrown out, on the simple grounds of "equal protection." If a specific act is legal between a man and a woman, then (due to the equal protection clause) it should be legal between two women or two men.

I'm not saying that it's right, just that it should be thrown out. Personally, I believe that given the circumstances, all laws governing personal conduct between consenting adults should be reconsidered. The #1 thing should be adultery, and there should be serious civil penalties for it, since adultery is anything but a "victimless" act. A marriage is, among other things, a contractual obligation, and like all contracts, it can be dissolved by the consent of the parties. However, if there's adultery and it causes the dissolution of the marriage, there should be a penalty. There should be a serious look at the concept of "no fault" divorce. I've believed for a long time that "no fault" divorce is far more detrimental to the institution of marriage than anything else, including homosexual marriage.

Mark

52 posted on 05/11/2003 9:18:14 AM PDT by MarkL
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To: RJCogburn
But Kurtz overlooks the fact that anti-sodomy laws can throw adults in jail for having consensual sex.

Sodomy is NOT sex.

62 posted on 05/11/2003 9:38:02 AM PDT by judgeandjury (The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the state.)
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To: RJCogburn
I would think the best defense in a sodomy case such as the recent one in Texas would be not to raise the 'privacy' issue, but rather laches.

Basically, the sodomy laws were written and passed with an apparent understanding that they would not strictly enforced. There are almost certainly gay bars in Texas and hotels where people who meet in such bars go. If the Republic of Texas really wanted to enforce the sodomy statutes, it's clear it could do a much better job.

That isn't to say the statutes are intended never to be enforced. If two men were to start humping each other on a park bench in broad daylight, few people would have any problem charging them with the sodomy statute.

The issue is, in a sense, one of degree. If a cop is letting people by who are driving 60mph in a 55 zone, that would not interfere with his authority to ticket someone who was doing 70, but would all into question a ticket issued to someone doing 56.

The problem in the extant case is that there's no real sign that the people did anything significantly worse than thousands of other people whom the police could have arrested and caught if they had any interest in doing so. The arrest of these two individuals was due to entirely arbitrary circumstances.

I oppose the enforcement of the law in the extant case not because I support sodomy, but rather because an essential aspect of tyranny is the passage of laws which will be sparsely enforced and widely disobeyed, but which can be enforced at will against anyone the state doesn't like.

119 posted on 05/11/2003 12:21:25 PM PDT by supercat (TAG--you're it!)
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To: RJCogburn
Anti-sodomy laws violate individual liberties.

I don't think so.

What about my liberty to control all aspects of your life?

Don't you understand that I have a God given right to control what you do in the privacy of your bedroom?

Where have you been? I clearly have the power to control what foods you eat, what you smoke and what drugs you may take. I have the right to force you to wear seat belts in your car and helmets on you motorcycle. I have the right to decide that you can not and must not own firearms. I have the right take away as much of your money as I need to build ballparks or whatever. I have the right to not allow women to control their reproductive functions from conception to delivery.

How dare you try to take away my inalianable right to control you. You must be a right-wing-communist-religous-fundamentalist-conservative ACLU member.

139 posted on 05/11/2003 4:15:10 PM PDT by Jeff Gordon
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To: RJCogburn
I guess lots of Libertarians participate in more than a lust for backing illegal drug use. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
177 posted on 05/11/2003 10:10:11 PM PDT by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: RJCogburn
I believe that society is built upon several underpining ideas which have evolved over the millenia as survival skills for that society.

We have today so divorced ourselves from our own history that we have become unaware of just how critical these underpinings are. As we continue to chip away at and discard those underpinings our society totters and tilts. The ideas and social mores that is our foundation will not be easily repaired once they've been destroyed.

The prohibition on homosexuality is one of those underpinings.

198 posted on 05/12/2003 5:30:43 AM PDT by Pietro
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To: RJCogburn
All laws violate liberties.
201 posted on 05/12/2003 6:21:11 AM PDT by biblewonk (Spose to be a Chrissssstian)
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To: RJCogburn
Anti sodomy laws just uphold common decency. And if one can't legislate morality, then why are we putting people in jail? Laws existed before our constitution did. I suppose those were all just arbitrary...
231 posted on 05/12/2003 7:18:45 AM PDT by Havoc (If you can't be frank all the time are you lying the rest of the time?)
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