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The .375 [H and H Magnum] on Elephant
The African Hunter ^ | Maybe 2003 | Brian Marsh

Posted on 05/23/2003 5:53:05 PM PDT by 45Auto

Harry Manners and Wally Johnson began elephant hunting in partnership in Mozambique in 1937, and both used off-the-shelf Winchesters (Harry owned four during his lifetime, one of which having a ‘bull-barrel’, which he discarded on the grounds of it being too heavy), both used only Kynoch 300-grain solids, and both averred that this rifle/cartridge combination was all that any professional ivory hunter ever needed. They were both expert shots and could place their bullets accurately from any angle for brain-shots on elephant, but both used shoulder shots when these were convenient, alleging that this was the largest and safest target. Harry shot The Monarch of Murrapa (185 and 183 pounds a side and number four in Rowland Ward’s Records of Big Game) with a single 300-grain .375 solid in the shoulder (the full story of this hunt being told in Harry’s autobiography, Kambaku, recently republished by Rowland Ward Publication, Johannesburg).

When ivory hunting was stopped in Mozambique in the early 1950s in favour of safari hunting, Harry and Wally entered the safari field, both still only using their .375s, and I first got to know them when visiting Moçambique Safarilandia’s Savé concessions at the owner’s invitation in 1965. Harry retired unscathed to Skuzuza in Kruger National Park after Mozambique’s independence, where I often visited him, while Wally, who had earlier been gored by a buffalo his .375 failed to stop, joined Safari South in Botswana, for whom I also hunted and where we renewed our friendship. In spite of Wally’s mishap with the buffalo, both he and Harry went to their graves asserting that a .375 H&H Magnum with 300-grain solid bullets was all a professional hunter needed for the hunting of elephant.

Two very experienced Zimbabwean game wardens who only ever used a .375 were John Osborne and Bruce Austen, and both agreed that it was completely adequate for elephant and both shot large numbers of elephant with their .375s, although Bruce told me he had once all-but-lost a bull wounded with his .375 that he was convinced did not have a brain.

His first shot to the brain was taken from close range with the bull standing squarely side-on, but on receiving Bruce’s 300-grain solid, the bull had merely spun around to stand again squarely side-on, whereupon Bruce gave him another similarly placed bullet on the other side of his head. Both these shots were in Bruce’s experienced opinion ‘correctly placed for the brain’, yet the bull took off and was stopped only by a raking shot to the body that Bruce was able to take before it disappeared.

I was very inexperienced when Bruce told me this story and I fervently hoped that I didn’t run up against too many brainless elephant, but I had the odd few even with my .470. The best designed bullet will sometimes deflect on striking bone - particularly when fired from close range before it has had time to stabilize - and Kynoch’s round-nose 300-grain .375 solid bullet is very well designed. But the fact that both of Bruce’s bullets failed to find the brain from the same range and angle might indicate that they had both deflected for the same reason.

We are all influenced by the advice of our mentors and if what they advise works the first time we are prone to become persuaded. My mentor was John ‘Pondoro’ Taylor whom I knew in the mid-1950s while commercial crocodile hunting on Lake Nyasa (now Lake Malawi), and I visited him whenever I was able and was always asking questions. Those who have read his Big Game and Big Game Rifles, or African Rifles & Cartridges, will know that Taylor was a disciple of the ‘heavy, medium-velocity’ school, and I faithfully followed. Like Tayor, I became a ‘doubles man’ and opted for a .470 double (a 500-grain bullet at 2150fps) when in the early 1960s I was granted the game management rights on the half-million acre Nuanetsi ranch in Rhodesia’s south-eastern lowveld, and had large quotas of elephant to cull.

John Osborne and Bruce Austen both left 'Parks to become safari professional hunters, Bruce running his own company and John hunting for Buffalo Range game ranch which is owned by the Style family, my wife’s cousins. The fifth professional hunter whom I know who has exclusively used a .375 H&H Mag as his safari back-up rifle is Rob Style of Buffalo Range, who for many years has had big-game concessions in the Zambezi Valley and whose clients have taken a great many elephant. Rob’s mentor was John Osborne, and Rob received the best elephant hunting training that anyone could have had and was a highly experienced hunter when he became a licenced professional at the age of 19. Rob followed John’s example in opting for a .375 as I had followed Taylor’s in opting for a .470. Rob had a minor tussle with a wounded lion on one occasion which his .375 had failed to stop, but has never had a serious problem with an elephant, which begs the question: Is there any more that I need to say?

To my knowledge the .375 H&H Magnum has been proven by five experienced professionals to be a suitable calibre for the hunting of elephant, whether for the citizen sport hunter who may shoot only one elephant in his lifetime (provided he knows exactly where to place his bullet) and for the experienced professional, but I confess to a few doubts to its suitability when the newly licenced professional is not yet experienced. I was privileged to be given a preview of Lust for Life (shortly to be released by Safari Press, California), the adventures of professional hunter Sten Cedergren who hunted through the ‘golden era’ of safari in East Africa and retired from professional hunting in 1997 at the age of 78. Sten commenced his African hunting as a problem animal control officer in Kenya in the 1950s, and had this to say about his elephant rifles:

“Shooting elephant cows and young bulls with the .470 was fine, but I soon realized when going after the big bulls in very dense bush, or the close bamboo forests on Mount Kenya and the Aberdares, that I needed something bigger... On my next visit to Nairobi I went again to Shaw & Hunter and was shown a beautifully balanced Westley Richards .500 Nitro Express boxlock non-ejector with 24-inch barrels, and once I had that rifle in my hands I knew I had to have it.”

The .500 NE fires a 570-grain bullet at 2150fps - the same velocity as the 500-grain .470 bullet - which Sten considered inadequate for big bulls in thick bush... Sten also raised a point about relative ‘knock-down power’ which I think is worth recording. He tells of an elephant hunt where his Mexican client took a head-shot on his elephant:

“‘Shoot,’ I hissed, and the client’s .375 boomed, and at the bullet’s impact the bull’s hindquarters sagged a bit, but he quickly recovered, turned around and in an instant the bushes were closing behind him... We found afterwards that my client’s 300-grain solid .375 bullet had only just missed the brain and had he been using a larger calibre with a heavier bullet, the shot would probably have stunned the bull and he would have gone down, giving the client sufficient time to close in and finish him off.”

Sten brought the bull down, but had his bullet not connected it is highly likely that they would never have seen it again. When an elephant escapes from a misplaced brain-shot it just goes and goes and goes, and the chances of the hunter ever catching up with it are about nil.

To my mind there is no hunting offence more immoral than to let an animal escape wounded due to the hunter being inadequately armed. To allow an elephant to escape wounded to die a lingering and painful death, or to recover with hate in its heart and become a man-killer, is nothing short of a crime if the hunter lost it in the first place because he was inadequately armed, and I believe that the inexperienced professional hunter who carries a .375 as his back-up weapon when hunting elephant, is inadequately armed.

No safari client of mine ever lost an elephant wounded. I lost a couple when cropping elephant in my tyro days which led me to embrace the infallible when I entered the safari field. As we all know, the brain-shot is considered to be the classical shot on elephant and I would tell my clients that they must go for this shot and explain how to do it. But then I would also explain that a brain-shot elephant collapses instantly, and if it was still on its feet the instant after he had fired, that he had missed the brain and it was wounded, then it became my duty to put in an immediate following shot to stop it from escaping. When the client came into the aim for the brain, I came into aim for the shoulder, and if the elephant’s shoulder was still in my sights immediately after the client fired, I would pull the trigger. I do not subscribe to the philosophy that it’s the client’s animal, he has paid for it, and he has the right to demand that his PH does not shoot it. The prime hunting ethic is that a hunter makes a quick, clean kill and ensures that there is minimal suffering, and this ethic must supersede any demand that a client may make.

The inexperienced citizen sport hunter using a .375 on his elephant may do well to take heed of the fact that Harry Manners took The Monarch of Murapa, a truly massive elephant bull, with a single side-on shoulder shot with his .375. If properly placed, and we must suppose that every hunter knows exactly where to place his bullet, this shot will sever the main arteries coming out of the heart and will very quickly bring the elephant down. John ‘Pondoro’ Taylor writes that he preferred the shoulder shot on an elephant if he was tackling a single bull, and the Rhodesian between-wars professional ivory hunter, Crawford Fletcher Jamieson, records the same in his diaries which I was privileged to read. Both asserted that the shoulder shot offered the largest and safest target, and if properly placed, and its a big enough target for there to be no excuse for it not to be properly placed, your bullet will always bring the elephant down, generally within 100 metres.

Always using my .470 for elephant during my cropping days on Nuanetsi with a Jeffery .404 as my reserve, I had no need to crop elephant with my peep-sighted Cogwell & Harrison .375 and only ever did this on one occasion. This rifle was fitted with a detachable ‘night’ scope which had two broad elevation pointers and single pointed upright which made it effective for cropping in moonlight, and I had used it to crop hippo on moonlight nights by ambushing them on their exit paths on the banks of the Lundi river.

There was a succession of bad droughts in the south-eastern lowveld in the early 1960s with a consequence that elephant emigrated in numbers from the Gona-re-Zhou onto the European-owned cattle ranches in search of water, causing in some cases a loss of valuable water and damage to troughs. Bruce Austen (mentioned earlier) was then warden of the south-eastern lowveld and I received a phone call from him early one morning requesting I go to the cold-storage ranch at Twiza to chase off four elephant bulls that were nightly breaking the fence around a paddock and half-emptying a storage tank.

“Shoot one of the bulls while they are at the tank,” said Bruce, “and the others will take the hint, and I’ll issue you with a cropping permit for it so you can keep the carcass and the ivory.”

It was just past the full moon, making it feasible for me to go that night, and I drove straight over to meet the manager and see the set-up - to find the pumphouse ideally situated for a night ambush on the tank. It was within easy shooting distance and there was an opening in the side wall through which I could shoot, and I returned that evening with my recovery team and vehicles and my night-scoped .375.

The ranch compound was adjacent to the paddock and I assumed the four bulls would not risk coming in till the inmates had settled down for the night, by which time the moon would have risen high enough to give sufficient light for me to shoot by, but in this I was wrong. I heard the fencing wire break shortly after the moon had risen and the four bulls came in, appearing in the gloom like four floating hulks being windblown slowly towards the tank.

I examined them through my binos when they stopped at the tank, which amplified what little light there was sufficiently to show me that one bull was clear of the others and standing directly side-on to me. I would have liked to have waited till the moon had risen higher but thought they might scent me and take off. I picked up my .375 and peered at the bull through the 2-1/2x scope. The sight picture in the reduced light of the scope made it appear that the bull had not moved, but in fact he had. He was now quartering towards me. I took aim at where I supposed the aiming mark on the shoulder would be and fired, and all four bulls stampeded through the fence opposite and into the mopane forest beyond.

I now strained my ears to hear the bull fall, as I was sure he would, but heard not a sound, and after waiting till the moon was well up I walked to the fence where the bulls had broken through, still convinced that the bull must be down. I then walked slowly into the moonlit forest, staring at every suspicious-looking shadow and stopping often to listen, then walked a little further and stopped again, and after a while I came to a clearing some 25 metres wide where I stopped yet again to listen, unaware that the wounded bull was standing in the shadows at one side of the clearing. I took another slow pace forwards into the clearing, whereupon the bull became aware of my presence and he turned around so that his head was towards me, the moonlight reflecting white upon his tusks.

I swung up the rifle up to my shoulder and fixed the two gleaming tusks in my scope, which now, due to the magnification, seemed to be suddenly at the end of my barrel and for an instant I thought he was charging.

I could not see the elephant clearly in the shadows, but I could clearly see his tusks, and taking an aim at where I supposed the centre of his chest would be, I kept on firing till the bull collapsed.

I was now able to see that my 300-grain Kynoch solid had not taken the bull in the shoulder, as I had supposed, but had squarely struck the bone of the upper foreleg, which had cracked, and by God’s good grace had broken while the bull was running and which had brought him to a halt. On butchering him I found my bullet had not penetrated the bone at all, completely disintegrated on impact instead, and had his leg bone not cracked and subsequently broken I would probably have never seen him again.

My advice to the tyro professional hunter is not to hunt elephant with a .375. And to the inexperienced citizen sport hunter using a .375 on elephant, to use only monolithic solids and to aim for the correct place on the shoulder to ensure he severs the main arteries above the heart.


TOPICS: Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: africa; bulls; cows; elephant; hunting; jumbo; olifant; safari
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1 posted on 05/23/2003 5:53:06 PM PDT by 45Auto
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To: 45Auto

The .375 H and H, left, and the .470 Nitro Express

2 posted on 05/23/2003 5:54:51 PM PDT by 45Auto (Big holes are (almost) always better.)
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To: 45Auto
Are those ok for gopher?
3 posted on 05/23/2003 5:59:03 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: 45Auto
Teddy used the .405 Winchester did he not?
4 posted on 05/23/2003 6:01:14 PM PDT by wardaddy (Your momma said I was a loser, a deadend cruiser and deep inside I knew that she was right)
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To: 45Auto
A friend of mine has an H&H .375 with a custom Enfield bolt.

He fired six hand-loaded rounds the first day he shot it and ended up with a huge black&blue mark on his shoulder.

Its a beast of a round.
5 posted on 05/23/2003 6:10:07 PM PDT by Rebelbase (220, 221 whatever it takes.)
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To: bang_list; Myrddin; Squantos; harpseal; archy
BANG!
6 posted on 05/23/2003 6:12:15 PM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Travis McGee
John Rigby Bolt Action Safari Rifle


7 posted on 05/23/2003 6:13:45 PM PDT by 45Auto (Big holes are (almost) always better.)
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To: 45Auto
That's nothing compared to the Nuke 50 BMG.


8 posted on 05/23/2003 6:13:45 PM PDT by AdamSelene235 (Like all the jolly good fellows, I drink my whiskey clear....)
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To: 45Auto
Semi custom?
9 posted on 05/23/2003 6:15:02 PM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: 45Auto
I believe that this month's American Rifleman Magazine has a rather in-depth article on the .375 H&H.
10 posted on 05/23/2003 6:18:28 PM PDT by Ronaldus Magnus
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To: 45Auto
I hereby dedicate this article to the "Friends of PETA" Club.
11 posted on 05/23/2003 6:21:54 PM PDT by AmericaUnited
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To: 45Auto
I have an article (not handy of course) where these fellow soaked bales of newspapers for comparative penetration tests. The 500 nitro went about 55 inches. the 470 wasn't far behind and some hot 45-70's did rather well also. They were using cast bullets. Impressive.
12 posted on 05/23/2003 6:25:00 PM PDT by umgud (gov't has more money than it needs, but never as much as it wants)
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Comment #13 Removed by Moderator

To: RLK
I agree...killing just for killing...then not eating your kill angers me to no end. There are times that elephants in Africa (the males) go berzerk and you have to take them down, this is usually when they are in heat. Why people want to act like a bunch of spoiled brat elitist eurotrash is beyond me.
14 posted on 05/23/2003 6:41:07 PM PDT by I got the rope
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To: 45Auto
I recently got a catalog of African double guns and cartridges. The guns went from $15,000 to $30,000. The cartridges were much more reasonable. For example, five (as in "5"; not "20" and not "50") .700 Nitro Express cartridges were only $399.95.

I guess if you have to ask, you can't afford it.
15 posted on 05/23/2003 6:49:46 PM PDT by jim_trent
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To: I got the rope
It's all moot. Another dacade or so and there will be no habitat left for elephants. You and I may not like trophy hunting, but it does no harm compared to over (human) population and habitat loss. If you want to save a little nature, you're gonna have to cull the humans.
16 posted on 05/23/2003 6:59:32 PM PDT by Born to Conserve
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To: I got the rope
Who cares why somebody would go throught the bother and huge financial costs of obtaining permits, guides and paying for a Safari to take an elephant. The good thing is that they do.

If it were not for the fees associated with sport hunting, the money to pay conservation officers and maintain preserves would not be there. If there is no teeth in laws to protect the game, bush meat demand will take its eventual toll.

OTOH, you could ban it altogether. That always works for every problem it is applied to in every other sphere.

BTW, most game in Africa, legal or not, is killed with European military calibers. Most of the bush meat hunting in the last century was with widely available .303's from the Brits. Much more of the ivory killing in the last quarter of the century was done by insurgents and rebel groups. Everything from RPG's to automatic fire from AK's were used to slaughter the beasts and strip the ivory for financing insurgency.

As in interesting aside, the widespread use of the .303 may be due to the exploits of Karamojo Bell and his famed rear-quartering shot with a .30 caliber rifle. A lot of dead colonials tried to duplicate his feats.
17 posted on 05/23/2003 7:02:38 PM PDT by WorkingClassFilth (Defund NPR, PBS and the LSC.)
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To: RLK
Elephants don't bother anybody. Elephants are among the top 5 man killers.
18 posted on 05/23/2003 7:11:57 PM PDT by ibme
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To: RLK
Ref post #13...Thank you.
19 posted on 05/23/2003 7:17:41 PM PDT by Gatún(CraigIsaMangoTreeLawyer)
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To: ibme
Deer are up there too - by auto-deer impacts.

Tens/hundreds of millions of dollars of damage a year also.
20 posted on 05/23/2003 7:23:02 PM PDT by Robert A. Cook, PE (I support FR monthly; and ABBCNNBCBS (continue to) Lie!)
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To: ibme
Elephants don't bother anybody. Elephants are among the top 5 man killers.

-----------------------

Under what circumstances? If left alone the only aggressiveness they general show is to lions.

21 posted on 05/23/2003 7:23:25 PM PDT by RLK
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To: WorkingClassFilth
Sorry...

I meant to say that Karamojo Bell used a .275 and the widespread use of .30 cal. rifles among 'me-too' Europeans may have much to do with Bell and his use of lighter, high velocity ammo on heavy game like the elephants. The widespread availability of military ammo from the .303 to the 7.62 mm NATO and all of the Soviet stuff is what has driven choice among poorer locals hunting for the pot or insurgents looking for profit.
22 posted on 05/23/2003 7:31:03 PM PDT by WorkingClassFilth (Defund NPR, PBS and the LSC.)
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To: wardaddy
Teddy used the .405 Winchester did he not?

On Zebra and Lion ("Model 1895, in .405, is the Medicine Gun for Lions"), but not elephant. The hides are too thick and the skulls are too massive.

23 posted on 05/23/2003 7:34:52 PM PDT by jscd3
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To: ibme
Elephants are among the top 5 man killers.

But what "men" and why were they killed by elephants? Who was really at fault? When was the last time some elephant killed somebody in the U.S. or the Rep of Panama? I think it's common sense...I would no way get close to a tiger or a poisonous snake or shark, etc. as I would to an elephant…or let them get close to me. Just a thought.

24 posted on 05/23/2003 7:35:15 PM PDT by Gatún(CraigIsaMangoTreeLawyer)
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To: 45Auto
Shot both of them. The Holland and Holland is the nastiest one to shoot. Shot it three times and that was the last time I ever touched it. Friend of mine had it and used it for Alaska Brown Bear hunting in the 70s. Understand he has a trip planned to go to Siberia to hunt in a year or so, bears again.
25 posted on 05/23/2003 7:35:30 PM PDT by crz
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To: Robert A. Cook, PE
Under what circumstances? If left alone the only aggressiveness they general show is to lions.

Wild elephants trample a lot of people to death ever year but I think it's more in places like India than Africa.

I saw a show cable...
I think this is the order they gave.

10) Bears
9) Sharks
8) Hyenas
7) Jellyfish
6) Big CATS
5) Elephants
4) Scorpions
3) CROCODILES
2) Bees and Wasps
1) SNAKES

26 posted on 05/23/2003 7:38:50 PM PDT by ibme
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To: Travis McGee; TEXASPROUD
I have a .460 weatherby mag on a custom ruger number 1 tropical. Great little plinker.........:o)

.375 H&H down loaded for elk in the lower 48 is another fine tewl I've seen used properly. Some of the tropical / safari calibers can be used easily for all mule deer or larger size game IMO with custom handloads. Ain't dat right Texasproud !!

Why you say ??? When talking guns or calibers "why" is not an applicable word. "Because"....is always gonna be the answer per my experience when asking........."why" ??

Stay Safe TM !!

27 posted on 05/23/2003 7:41:48 PM PDT by Squantos (Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.)
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To: 45Auto
.470 Nitro Express

I'm amazed that some very savvy marketing expert hasn't marketed a high-performance
automobile as the "Nitro Express".

Thanks for posting...I grew up on a semi-regular diet of "Outdoor Life" magazine...
28 posted on 05/23/2003 7:42:46 PM PDT by VOA
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To: 45Auto
While the .375 H&H is an excellent cartridge, the 6.5 Mannlicher - Schoenauer was the most popular cartridge among professional ivory hunters due to its low report & the high penetration & accuracy, because of the high sectional density of the projectile - most used 140 or 160 grain bullets, which are really long for the diameter
29 posted on 05/23/2003 7:44:07 PM PDT by Ford Fairlane
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To: Squantos
I guess that Ruger #1 smarts a mite with full house loads?
30 posted on 05/23/2003 7:52:52 PM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: RLK; Admin Moderator
Please respect the rules of Free Republic. Language like that isn't really appropriate in this forum.
Admin Moderator, please edit or delete post #13 from this thread.
31 posted on 05/23/2003 7:56:35 PM PDT by JavaTheHutt ( Gun Control - The difference between Lexington Green and Tiennimen Square.)
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To: 45Auto
bump ... interesting.
32 posted on 05/23/2003 8:01:51 PM PDT by Centurion2000 (We are crushing our enemies, seeing him driven before us and hearing the lamentations of the liberal)
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To: Ford Fairlane
The penetration of those 6.5 solids can be really surprising.

When I was 18 years old, I ordered a Swedish Mauser through the mail (yes we really could do that at one time) I also ordered some 160 grain fmj round nose military ammo.

Those bullets were extremely long. I had to pick up the gun and ammo at Railway Express because the post office would not deliver ammmo even back then.

I took the gun down to some land owned by my Uncle Buck and tried it out. I literally could not find a tree thick enough to stop one of those solids. Some of those trees probably had a diameter of four or five feet and those little 6.5"s would zip right through them.

I believe that is why Bell used the 6.5MS and 7MM Mauser to kill over 5000 elephants. He said what was needed was penetration. It obviously worked for him. The problem with all modern ammo is that none of it has those long, parallel sided bullets which penetrate like crazy but with the round nose are not ballistically efficient.

33 posted on 05/23/2003 8:06:12 PM PDT by yarddog
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To: Travis McGee
Sadly with a sedate lifestyle due to back injuries I have a solid foundation (read big ass)....for now...:o) Not really that bad with factory ammo. It'll pop ya if ya don't pay attention to detail ..........but then I like my .500 linebaugh ruger bisley too so recoil is not a problem for me so far. As I get older and hopefully "thinner" it will probably become an issue but I'll just download and continue to enjoy the firearms as the fine well made guns that they are.

Stay Safe !

34 posted on 05/23/2003 8:08:49 PM PDT by Squantos (Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.)
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To: RLK
Government hunters in Africa shoot poisoned ones out of necessity. They use a 30-06.

I hear the AK47 is widely used by ivory poachers. Full magazines at a time I would suspect.

35 posted on 05/23/2003 8:09:50 PM PDT by templar
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To: RLK
What do you like better? Africans or elephants?

Imagine a 2 ton rabbit in your garden, every day.

Elephants compete with humans for food.

I'll bet you wouldn't long tolerate a herd of them foraging in your backyard.

Regards,

L

36 posted on 05/23/2003 8:16:39 PM PDT by Lurker ("One man of reason and goodwill is worth more, actually and potentially, than a million fools" AR)
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To: Gatún(CraigIsaMangoTreeLawyer)
But what "men" and why were they killed by elephants?

An Elephant attacked a child in Denver last year for no apparent reason, and I was almost stepped on by one that just sort of carelessly shoved me aside in Larkspur Colorado last summer. The darned things are dangerous and don't mind squashinhg people at all. I can easily see them as man killers if they got mad for some reason.

37 posted on 05/23/2003 8:24:51 PM PDT by templar
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To: Squantos; Travis McGee
Biggest gun I ever shot was in college. A sterno can hand cannon ...lobbed some beenie weenies cans out one dorm window and thru another one in a tower about 100 yards away...thru that guy's window and took out a big chunk of cinder block...missed his head by a foot or so.

Problem was...he was blind....The Roberspierre gang at my dorm threw me out. I was moved to another dorm and was elected dorm president.

The weapon was sort of like a hand held punt gun....I'd guess around 0 or 2 bore. I don't know if it'd penetrate an elephants hide but I bet it would knock the breath out of him.

Ignition was a bit tricky.
38 posted on 05/23/2003 9:08:34 PM PDT by wardaddy (Your momma said I was a loser, a deadend cruiser and deep inside I knew that she was right)
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To: wardaddy
Hmm, smashed in the head with a can, or dinged in the head with a .22..... Hmmm...

Some things I hope I never experience.

39 posted on 05/23/2003 9:14:49 PM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: jscd3
He killed a rhino with one.

It was in the American Rifleman some months ago.
40 posted on 05/23/2003 9:20:02 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: wardaddy; Travis McGee
Remainds me of the guy sitting in his car at a supermarket when he heard a large bang, a sharp pain in the back of his head . When he reached back he came back with a handfull of bloody goo, freaked and called 911 for help as he'd been shot in the brain in a drive by he said.

Well seems that the little womans groceries in the back seat got hot and a can of pilsbury biscuits "expanded" when they got too warm and blew up . The tin part of the biscuit can hit the guys noggin , cut him just enough to bleed a bit and when he came back with a handful of warm dough and blood the rest was history per se......

Stay Safe !

41 posted on 05/23/2003 9:25:45 PM PDT by Squantos (Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.)
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To: Shooter 2.5; Travis McGee; archy
Do you remember the caliber that Sir Richard Burton carried..... not liz taylors main squeeze.....the African Adventurer.

Stay Safe !

42 posted on 05/23/2003 9:28:22 PM PDT by Squantos (Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.)
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To: 1rudeboy
A co-worker used a .375 when the guys went prairie dog shooting in the Texas Panhandle. He wanted to know what it would do. He found out if he just shot the mound all of the dogs that were on it were killed. He only tried it a couple of time to confirm that's what was happening. When they came back, the cartoon that was drawn showed a mushroom cloud over the mound. That's when they explained to me what they did.

I have no idea which .375 was used. "Cartridges of the World" lists 15 of them. I think it may have been the H&H.
43 posted on 05/23/2003 9:29:52 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: 45Auto
http://englishwww.humnet.ucla.edu/Individuals/turbo4/orwell_text.html
44 posted on 05/23/2003 9:30:26 PM PDT by Age of Reason
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To: 45Auto
MATHEMATICIANS hunt elephants by going to Africa, throwing out everything that is not an elephant, and shooting one of whatever is left.

EXPERIENCED MATHEMATICIANS will attempt to prove the existence of at least one unique elephant before proceeding to step 1 as a subordinate exercise.

PROFESSORS OF MATHEMATICS will prove the existence of at least one unique elephant and then leave the detection and harvest of an actual elephant as an exercise for their graduate students.

COMPUTER SCIENTISTS hunt elephants by exercising Algorithm A:

  1. Go to Africa.
  2. Start at the Cape of Good Hope.
  3. Work northward in an orderly manner, traversing the continent alternately east and west.
  4. During each traverse pass,
  1. Shoot each animal seen.
  2. Compare each animal shot to a known elephant.
  3. Stop when a match is detected.

EXPERIENCED COMPUTER PROGRAMMERS modify Algorithm A by placing a known elephant in Cairo to ensure that the algorithm will terminate.

ASSEMBLY LANGUAGE PROGRAMMERS prefer to execute Algorithm A on their hands and knees ENGINEERS hunt elephants by going to Africa, shooting gray animals at random, and stopping when any one of them weighs within plus or minus 15 percent of any previously observed elephant.

ECONOMISTS don't hunt elephants, but they believe that if elephants are paid enough, they will hunt themselves.

STATISTICIANS hunt the first animal they see N times and call it an elephant.

CONSULTANTS don't hunt elephants, and many have never hunted anything at all, but they can be hired by the hour to advise those people who do.

OPERATIONS RESEARCH CONSULTANTS can also measure the correlation of hat size and bullet color to the efficiency of elephant-hunting strategies, if someone else will only identify the elephants.

POLITICIANS don't hunt elephants, but they will share the elephants you shoot with the people who voted for them.

LAWYERS don't hunt elephants, but they do follow the herds around arguing about who owns the droppings.

SOFTWARE LAWYERS will claim that they own an entire herd based on the look and feel of one dropping.

VICE PRESIDENTS OF ENGINEERING, RESEARCH, AND DEVELOPMENT try hard to hunt elephants, but their staffs are designed to prevent it. When the vice president does get to hunt elephants, the staff will try to ensure that all possible elephants are completely prehunted before the vice president sees them. If the vice president does see a non-prehunted elephant, the staff will (1) compliment the vice president's keen eyesight and (2) enlarge itself to prevent any recurrence.

SENIOR MANAGERS set broad elephant-hunting policy based on the assumption that elephants are just like field mice, but with deeper voices.

QUALITY ASSURANCE INSPECTORS ignore the elephants and look for mistakes the other hunters made when they were packing the jeep.

SALES PEOPLE don't hunt elephants but spend their time selling elephants they haven't shot, for delivery two days before the season opens.

SOFTWARE SALES PEOPLE ship the first thing they shoot and write up an invoice for an elephant.

HARDWARE SALES PEOPLE shoot rabbits, paint them gray, and sell them as desktop elephants.

EXPERIMENTAL PHYSICISTS hunt elephants by shooting everything in Africa with a bazooka and looking for a giant, flying ivory tusk that is theorized to be part of the elephant's primary decay mode. (Actually, since the presence of elephants in Africa is fairly well established, experimental physicists have recently been hunting in Europe and North America where they are convinced that if only they build a big enough bazooka they'll surely find the elephant they're looking for.)

THEORETICAL PHYSICISTS don't actually hunt elephants, but they argue a lot about whether an elephant that an experimental phsycist may have shot (but might have missed) can reasonably be modeled by a half dead elephant.


From cengel over here.
45 posted on 05/23/2003 9:34:35 PM PDT by kitchen
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To: Squantos
I can't find a particular rifle at the moment. I did find a place to start to look.

http://www.isidore-of-seville.com/burton/


He wasn't listed in "Great Shooters of the World". He must have been more explorer than hunter.
46 posted on 05/23/2003 9:41:52 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: Travis McGee
Hey...."Live a life of danger/Be a dorm room ranger"

Now I know why everybody seems nervous when I'm at the range.
47 posted on 05/23/2003 9:51:37 PM PDT by wardaddy (Your momma said I was a loser, a deadend cruiser and deep inside I knew that she was right)
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To: Squantos
I've heard one like that too.

Sincerely, we did not know the guy was blind...hell, we weren't even aiming for him. We were gunning for the athletic dorm and only missed it by a few hundred yards.
48 posted on 05/23/2003 9:54:17 PM PDT by wardaddy (Your momma said I was a loser, a deadend cruiser and deep inside I knew that she was right)
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To: Travis McGee
on that head shot....

The guy (my buddy) who shot me then shot himself in the leg with a .41 magnum SW wheelgun about a year later quick drawing. He blamed it on the dog...yeah right.

Sadly a few years after that he and another friend crashed and burned in a 150 in a low wing stall over a bean field chasing deer. Neither were licensed. Life can play cruel tricks to the foolhardy can it not?

I still visit his grave and place some flowers when I'm in Jackson at times...and thank him for not having his Ruger #1 in .338(which was on the rack by the door)that day they clipped me with the Kimber .22

Small favors deserve to not be forgotten.
49 posted on 05/23/2003 9:59:27 PM PDT by wardaddy (Your momma said I was a loser, a deadend cruiser and deep inside I knew that she was right)
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To: jscd3
Thanks...I'm only a mere whitetail primitive hunter....and former duck hunter.
50 posted on 05/23/2003 10:01:16 PM PDT by wardaddy (Your momma said I was a loser, a deadend cruiser and deep inside I knew that she was right)
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