The Hog That Saves the Grunts ...... A-10 Warthogs to be retired.

New York Times | 05/27/03 | Robert Coram

[Tom Bombadil]

The F111 was the best example of how NOT to build a military airplane

It actually was a kind of test platform for things like side-looking radar. I seem to remember that it also had a little problem with parachutes not opening when the crew ejected.

I also read somewhere that the F111 was used in developing the F14. But it never did do all of the things it was originally commissioned to do.

[arm958]

After 20+ years in the Army, one thing I know is that soldiers love to complain about the Air Force (soft, spoiled, elitist, etc., etc.). I'm sure the Air Force has its own set of jokes and complaints about the Army. However, put an Air Force A-10 pilot in an Army Officers' or NCO club and he won't be buying a beer all night.

[Ben Bolt]

This man has a link up that speaks volumes . I do hope for the sake of anyone needing CAS will reconsider . Damn it .

[Mr Rogers]

Couple of comments -

A-10: There is a modification program to give the A-10 digital avionics, data link, targeting pod and the ability to use precision weapons. It is called the Precision Engagement upgrade, and I'm told ACC put it at the TOP of their list to be canceled. The F-16 is more capable at CAS than it used to be - as targeting pods improve, it becomes possible IN CLEAR WX to target with great precision at 35,000 feet. The new targeting pods (Litening and maybe someday Sniper) offer awesome performance. However, in cr@ppy wx, you have to get low & slow. Not all wars are fought in clear weather!

As for the F-111: it was given an avionics upgrade in the mid-90s that turned it into a highly reliable and very precise aircraft, with operating costs equivalent to an F-15E. It was retired almost immediately after modification. In fact, one of the EF-111s went directly from the mod line in Sacremento to the boneyard in Tucson - one flight post mod.

The USAF could have kept 24 F-111Fs and 36? EF-111s - all modified - for the cost of operating 20 Prowlers...and each Prowler carries (typically) 60% of the EF-111's transmitters. In addition, the EF-111 had been modified to PREVENT it from carrying HARM missiles - the wires to the wing station were cut to prevent competition with the Block 50 F-16s. Had they been spliced, the EF-111 could have carried 4 HARMs and 10 transmitters on every sortie with twice the loiter time of a Prowler - with twice the numbers and 24 F-111Fs thrown in for free...but the USAF killed the remaining 111s while the Navy agreed to fund the 20 Prowlers.

Wish I could be more optimistic about the A-10 surviving - I would like to work on the upgrade - but the F-111 example shows how stupid the USAF can be about their 'second class' aircraft. BTW - when I was an ALO, I loved the A-10 and despised the F-16.

[BnBlFlag]

This would be a great project for the Air wings of the USMC!

[fooman]

I cant beleive they would kill this. I think that there was work on an A12. We should be building the next gen built out of Kevlar or something.

But we need the flying tank.

[ASOC]

The revised A-51 was a counter to the A-10 -- to save money.
For the record, the A-10 replaced the A7 and the A7 pilots were none to happy. None of the wiz-bang avionics. I worked on the A10 OT&E at Nellis in the early 70s. First time they fired the gun, an engine flamed out because of injestion of powder residue....A WHOLE lot of work went into the plane to make it work.

You may remember when, in GW1, the A10s got close to ZSU-23/4 they got shredded big time. The A10 was originally made for 'nam as a COIN support A/C like the Mohawk or Bronco. The Bronco and F4 had a 30mm gun pod for busting tanks as well.

A Preditor with a Hellfire sounds like a good deal to me.

BTW, the USAF will still provide CAS for the Army and Corps - weather permitting.....which is why the smart commander will insist on arty to go along to the field.

Hoo-ah

[wku man]

No kidding. Hopefully someone will slap some sense into the AF CoS. Better yet, let the Army have 'em.

Scouts Out! Cavalry Ho!

[toddst]

The Army is not allowed to operate fixed wing combat aircraft: Key West Agreement 1948. The Marine Corps does not want nor does it need the A-10.

I would like to know more about the "Key West Agreement." The Army could decide it wants this weapon system IMO. The same goes for the Marines. I hope we'll see some "out of the box" thinking. The A-10 has application well beyond next year and already exists - NO R&D costs.

[Beck_isright]

I know a lot of USMC buddies that would love to add the A-10 to their air arm. But then again that would mean the Pentagon would become logical and that will never happen in my lifetime.

[Cacique]

ping

[razorbak]

They said the A-10 was dead after the first Gulf War also.

[Beowulf]

The "fighter mafia" mentally among the Air Force brass is to blame for the talk about retiring the A-10 --- however we've been hearing about the impending retirement of the A-10 since the first Gulf War, and the Warthog is still defending the troops.

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

The Marine Corps doesn't want or need any more airframes that are pushing or are over 20 years old. Can't operate an A-10 from the deck of a LHA/LHD. The Marine Corps is on it's way to operating one tactical airplane, the F-35, and spent the 90s getting rid of the A-4, F-4, A-6 and OV-10. Logistically it would be a nightmare. Wishful thinking won't change reality. It doesn't matter what the Army wants, it only matters what they are allowed to have.

[haole]

"the A-16", an F-16 with a 30mm cannon pod was proposed back in the late '80s. What a joke.

The A-12 "kite" was a disaster as far as trying to land a flying wing on the deck of a carrier-it was designed for lo-observable, not to be a Navy craft.

The F-111 "McNamras Folly" never made it performance goals, was a flying dog.

The F-14 was a brilliant effort/design by Grumman to satisfy the Navy's fleet air defence req't. Also, the A-6 Intruder was also a brilliant design to accomplish its task, fly far with many bombs.

In contrast, the fuel hog that is the F-18 (either version ), is being trumped up to relace the A-6. They just started putting on composite wings on the A-6s when klintoons DOD wanted them mothballed.