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Wilderness bewilderment (Nature Conservancy Eco-Scandal)
The Guardian (U.K.) ^ | 29 May 2003 | Oliver Burkeman

Posted on 05/29/2003 12:13:48 AM PDT by Stultis

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To: Grampa Dave
You nailed it, Gramps!

Smash The Watermelon B*stards!

Heads on pikes!

[I can be soooo predictable, sometimes. ;^)]
41 posted on 05/30/2003 7:51:18 AM PDT by headsonpikes
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To: headsonpikes
Watermelon Heads on Pikes!

Sounds like a great summertime adventure!
42 posted on 05/30/2003 7:54:34 AM PDT by Grampa Dave (Can anyone ever remember the NY Slimes printing a truthful story? I can't!)
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To: countrydummy; risk
Shall we call Risk over to this thread so he can see what his eco buddies are doing to "protect" the environment from big business?
43 posted on 05/30/2003 10:16:40 AM PDT by farmfriend ( Isaiah 55:10,11)
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To: farmfriend
sounds like a plan, but after his last post on the other, I think we are pounding our heads against a concrete wall! lol lol
44 posted on 05/30/2003 10:41:28 AM PDT by countrydummy
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To: countrydummy
Go back and read the posts both Mark and I posted.
45 posted on 05/30/2003 10:42:47 AM PDT by farmfriend ( Isaiah 55:10,11)
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To: farmfriend
Me? I have read them and so agree. Risk needs to read them again! lol
46 posted on 05/30/2003 10:46:05 AM PDT by countrydummy
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To: countrydummy; farmfriend; Carry_Okie
No, they aren't my friends. I mistrust these guys way more than I mistrust corporate fair/common use advocates. In fact, I think the Republican party is going to have the power to make some of the choices we're discussing here very soon. My position remains in short:
  1. There is a silent majority of Americans who agree with conservation, and they're not ecoterrorists. I consider myself one of them. We don't agree with either the ecofreaks or the privatization advocates.
  2. There is no formula for disaster in public conservation. I believe this is disinformation with an obvious corporate bias. It's as transparent as a drop of dew.
  3. Teddy's conservation is worth preserving. "Problems" we have now are not necessarily caused by his legislation. We simply have new datapoints to use in future forest management.
  4. Our redwoods, sequoias, and true old-growth are worth protecting 100%. Thinning is OK if it really works, but I don't trust those who profit from the practice to limit their consumption.
The right is much more likely to be setting the tone of these debates in the next 20 years than the left, and so I care a lot more about what you all think than I do the econuts! I'm a non-corporate fair/common use advocate, and I have nothing to gain or lose by this except a deeply-held commitment to conservation.
47 posted on 05/30/2003 11:24:52 AM PDT by risk
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To: risk
I don't trust those who profit from the practice to limit their consumption.

Carry_Okie's system would make it profitable for them to limit their consumption. The best of both worlds.

I have nothing to gain or lose by this except a deeply-held commitment to conservation.

Then I take it you will be looking into Natural Process on a deeper level. I suggest buying the book.

48 posted on 05/30/2003 11:31:54 AM PDT by farmfriend ( Isaiah 55:10,11)
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To: risk; farmfriend; Carry_Okie
Risk, you really should purchase Carry-okie's book, and another on is "Undue Influence" by Ron Arnold....Ron also has several others and I am trying to get them....one thing I don't think you understand about me, farmfriend and carry_okie, as well as all the other posters to these threads, are that we all love the land and consider ourselfs to be conservationists......I do at any rate, and as such, I feel that I am the best steward of my land!

Again, please get the books, this will help you to see both sides of this coin!!! If you will look at my bookmarks, you will also understand that I stand to lose my home, my way of life, my heritage all because of a "view-shed" that is not even a "view-shed" yet, but will be if the NPS has it's way and gets a scenic parkway built along the New River from I-64 to Hinton, WV!

49 posted on 05/30/2003 11:42:30 AM PDT by countrydummy
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To: farmfriend
What is the problem we're trying to solve? Here is the Natural Process synopsis:
To improve ecosystem health, invest in shares of private enterprises selling uses of natural processes that are priced by their ability to offset environmental risk.
Again, why does anyone need to profit from our conservancies at all?

It's counter-intuitive to suggest that someone who makes a profit from stomping around in the woods will suddenly acquire a conscience and decide to limit that behavior. Staying totally out of these areas would make more sense. But we don't have to do that to learn from previous forestry mistakes. I'm not buying privatization as a solution. It's the fox guarding the henhouse.

50 posted on 05/30/2003 11:43:41 AM PDT by risk
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To: countrydummy
I do at any rate, and as such, I feel that I am the best steward of my land!

It's good to know you guys are conservationists. I also agree that you should have the right to choose how to conserve your own resources as long as you don't impact people downstream or cause mudslides, etc...

But the land Teddy Roosevelt saved is not your private land, and I don't have to trust you personally to do what's best for it. I'd prefer to keep it that way, and if there are issues with habitat damage caused by poorly managed agencies, then we need to solve that problem directly, not with privatization.

As soon as you privatize, the resources will go to the highest bidder, and we know who that is.

51 posted on 05/30/2003 11:56:36 AM PDT by risk
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To: risk
Staying totally out of these areas would make more sense.

No, it doesn't because of the problem with invasive species. I'll see if I can find the thread with the pictures of Conservancy land that has been destroyed by leaving it alone. Setting land aside is what is killing the land. You need to read further and get off the whole profit thing.

I'm not buying privatization as a solution. It's the fox guarding the henhouse.

That right there tells me you have no clue what Natural Process is all about. Buy the book before you judge.

Let me ask you this, is the UL tag on electrical stuff "the fox guarding the hen house"? Is innovation in the health care system, Conservation of peoples lives, driven by profit or a desire to save people? Innovation in environmental conservation can be driven by profit and will be more effective if it is. Open your mind. Natural Process is a whole new way of thinking. You can't get there using old models.

Mark will get back to you this evening. He is out pulling weeds right now. Mean while, I'll look for those pictures.

52 posted on 05/30/2003 12:11:52 PM PDT by farmfriend ( Isaiah 55:10,11)
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To: risk
here are two related stories you may wish to read.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/917875/posts

(shoot will have to send the other one, I will just bump you to it)

53 posted on 05/30/2003 12:25:22 PM PDT by countrydummy
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To: risk
Mark will get back to you this evening. He is out pulling weeds right now.

That makes it sound like we are in the same place, we are not. He had just told me he was going to pull weeds.

I support Mark's work in an official capacity. I supported it when I was Legislative Director for the California State Grange and I continue to support it as part of the Conservation and Environmental Affairs Committee. I advocate Grange policy. This work fits very well and covers policy from both the left and right of our organization. All Grange policy is drafted by local Granges. It is truly Grassroots. Founded in 1867, the Grange is the oldest general farm and public policy organization in the United States.

54 posted on 05/30/2003 12:31:03 PM PDT by farmfriend ( Isaiah 55:10,11)
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To: farmfriend
Buy the book before you judge.

Wait, I don't need to spend my money to be convinced of an argument I am not likely to agree with anyway. That's the invisible hand at work again :)

  1. The forests were fine without us. We're not likely to help them by fighting all fires, or "thinning" as much as we would by just leaving them alone. I don't think that's necessary, but it illustrates my point: less is more in the case of activity with regard to conservation.
  2. People have to take care of themselves. They need to find ways of making a living without invading the preserved lands. If the conservation is constant, we won't need to worry about this. There is no "manifest destiny" of natural resource consumption.
  3. I've camped and played in these areas, and I'm proud of the charter of the national agencies like the Forest Service and the BLM. If there's a problem, we need to solve it from within, not by tearing them down.
Sorry, but the problems we're having with the enviralists are not caused by public conservation in and of itself, and they won't go away if we privatize the lands and their resources. The resources would soon disappear, however.

Regardless of the extremists on the side of the corporations or the enviralist terrorist-wannabes, there is still a choice to be made: do we save the preserves for future generations or do we not. I favor limiting access, saving what we have left, and restricting profiteering. Sorry, but I think we have more at stake here than the current generation, and I'm sure Teddy Roosevelt understood that choice as well.

That choice will not go away. You can dress it up any way you like, but it's the same debate. And plenty of Americans are in favor of limiting use of these resources one way or another. And they're not all leftists.

55 posted on 05/30/2003 12:38:37 PM PDT by risk
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To: risk
Wait, I don't need to spend my money to be convinced of an argument I am not likely to agree with anyway.

That is the most rediculous thing you have said. IT's not an argument, it's a process. A new way of doing things. A better way of doing things.

do we save the preserves for future generations or do we not. I favor limiting access, saving what we have left, and restricting profiteering.

Hello, have you been listening? Limiting access is what is killing the forest and perserves in general. Whether or not someone makes a profit should be irreleven if what you are conserned about it preservation.

The forests were fine without us.

NO they are not, that is why the Biscuit fire burned a National Monument not PL's land.

I've camped and played in these areas, and I'm proud of the charter of the national agencies like the Forest Service and the BLM.

And as the daughter of a registered forester, I grew up in the Los Padres, Lassen, and Tahoe National Forests.

56 posted on 05/30/2003 1:11:25 PM PDT by farmfriend ( Isaiah 55:10,11)
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To: farmfriend
Limiting access is what is killing the forest and perserves in general.

What? Forests were there for thousands of years before we got here, but they'd be better off with our "well-researched" (i.e. a couple of generations of data, not much else) techniques?

I'm not buying it. It's obvious to me that the whole point of this "patented process" is to get the resources into the hands of those who can profit from it. The American people will say no thank you. So do I.

57 posted on 05/30/2003 1:26:07 PM PDT by risk
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To: risk
Forests were there for thousands of years before we got here

The forest have been manage by aboriginals for thousands of years.

It's obvious to me that the whole point of this "patented process" is to get the resources into the hands of those who can profit from it.

Wrong, I know, I've read the book. The whole point is to better improve the environment. The process has been patented to protect the investment he has made researching and writing the book. Read the stuff in that last link, then get back to me. I'm starting to believe that you won't read the link. I doubt you went and looked at the pictures of destroyed conservation land and you seem more conserned with profit than the environment.

58 posted on 05/30/2003 1:36:43 PM PDT by farmfriend ( Isaiah 55:10,11)
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To: risk; farmfriend; Carry_Okie
But the land Teddy Roosevelt saved is not your private land, and I don't have to trust you personally to do what's best for it.

Teddy Roosevelt was one of the most prolific land grabbers ever.

First of all, whatever land the Feds manage to put on welfare, becomes ruined. Fires, floods, invasive species etc. Examples are all the ruined lands out west and the ill Everglades National Park.

When the crackers and Indians had it, it was all well groomed praries with tons of small game and in turn large game. Now it's managed by disinterested bureacrats from Rhode Island or the Northwest or wherever. Nearly all species of warm blooded vertibates have been depletd in the last 50 years.

The government is the worst possible steward of natural resources, you're a damn fool if you think otherwise.

59 posted on 05/30/2003 3:44:19 PM PDT by AAABEST
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To: AAABEST
When the crackers and Indians had it

Crackers? Crackers? You are going to have to brush up on your political correctness. ; ^ )

60 posted on 05/30/2003 5:32:14 PM PDT by farmfriend ( Isaiah 55:10,11)
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