Today's Village Voice question: "Would you call Eric Rudolph a 'Christian terrorist'?"

The Village Voice ^ | 6/4/03

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The Village Voice question is almost always answered exclusively by liberals (“How can you even ask if Bush is as bad as Hitler?! The question should be asked the other way around!!”) but I thought some conservatives might like to give their views on this question.

Would you call Eric Rudolph a 'Christian terrorist'?

[Lady Heron]

The Koran clearly instructs Muslims NOT to kill non-combatants, it says that like killing women and children, killing non-combatants is haram, unlawful, in order to justify his actions under Islamic law, Usama bin Laden took the stand that the people in the Twin Towers were "combatants" in the sense that the enemy of Islam is the West, and one of the West’s strongest weapons is its financial prowess.

The koran is the biggest piece of condrictatory gargage. By the end of Mohommids life he was calling for the death of "infidels" where in the beginning of his life he wanted to try to win them over to his point of view. When they refused to follow him he began killing and enslaving them. The koran gave Osma the right to kill non-muslims.

"O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed." (Koran, 9:73)

"When you meet the unbelievers in jihad, chop off their heads. And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners rigorously. Then set them free or take ransom from them until the war is ended." (Koran, 47:4)

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and his messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be to be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and genitals cut off, or to be expelled out of the land. Such will be their humiliation in the world, and in the next world they will face an awful horror." (Koran, 5:33-34)

"When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet sin. So that Allah's word is proven true against them, then we destroy them utterly." (Koran, 17:16-17)

"In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the impure ones [all non-Muslims] one on top of another in a heap and cast them into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost." (Koran, 8:37)

"How many were the populations we utterly destroyed because of their sins, setting up in their place other peoples." (Koran, 21:11)

"Remember Allah inspired the angels: I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their fingertips off of them." (Koran, 8:12)

This is why 85 to 90% of muslims when polled support al-quaida's actions.

[Lady Heron]

We can't agree on our own Bible...but WE KNOW the Koran.

Christians do agree on the main important doctrines of the Bible. It is the extras added, or little differences like is a musical instrument allowed into the Church (a pet peeve of the Church of Christ)and so on... that do not really matter but create a new denomination, that we do not agree on.

[Lady Heron]

No it is not. How many more Christians do you need to tell you that his beliefs are not supported by the Bible and that he is a neo-nazi. Figure it out, islamic extreemist are not denounced by 90% of the muslim population because it conforms to teachings in the koran. Christian after Christian are denouncing this guy, and saying that his beliefs are contrary to Biblical teachings, but you just keep on plugging away with the same line of thought.

I guess it does not fit your agenda. Time to change your profile after all.

[af_vet_1981]

No they didn't. That's not their motivation.

Both movements acted in furtherance of Christianity as they understand it. Those were the words you used to satisfy the criteria.

The fundamental precept of Islam is that it has replaced the Jewish and Christian faith. It lays claim to the same foundations, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, as well as all the OT prophets, but insists that it and it alone is the heir. The presence of millions of Jews in the Biblical land of Israel, not living under Islamic rule, is regarded such a threat to this radical view of the world that almost every Islamic country desired to destroy the state of Israel. It has only been the courage and arms of a minority that has prevented a second holocaust. The terrorists believe they have a divine mandate to cleanse the land of Jews and that they are acting in the best interests of both Jews and Christians because they alone have the truth. They believe they are furthering the actual designs of both Moses and Jesus.

With particular virulence Nazi theology has attempted to create a Christianity divorced from its Jewish roots. They were acting in furtherance of Christianity as they understand it.

[elfman2]

"The terrorists believe they have a divine mandate to cleanse the land of Jews and that they are acting in the best interests of both Jews and Christians because they alone have the truth."

You're telling me that acting to further the interests of Christians (in making them Muslim) is the same as acting in the interest of Christianity?

And to be more precise, Christian Identity terrorists are "motivated" by the furthering the interests of Christianity as they understand it.

"With particular virulence Nazi theology has attempted to create a Christianity divorced from its Jewish roots. They were acting in furtherance of Christianity as they understand it."

I don't think so. Your link describes Nazism as having pagan roots. It's someone else's opinion that it was "attempting to create a new "Christianity". As far as I know, they make no claim to doing so themselves, much less Christianity being their motivation.

[elfman2]

"you just keep on plugging away with the same line of thought. I guess it does not fit your agenda."

It's the same thought fact (or at least the same apparent fact) that bothers you because it doesn’t fit your "agenda". No one's made a reasonable argument against it yet. Just angry empty replies like yours and word games.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Radical Islamicists use out of content snipets from teh Quran to convince their followers that the Prophet said that it was OK to kill non-believers. They never read the surrounding text, which would make it quite clear that Muhammad was talking about agressors, people who would attack them.

You engage in the very same tactic of parsing out the whole book in order to prove your point.

You are doing Usama's work for him.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Go ahead and share with us from the Old Testament what Jesus would have us Christians do

Jesus in the Old Testament?

This isn't shaping up to be an intelligent debate at all.

[Luis Gonzalez]

"This is why 85 to 90% of muslims when polled support al-quaida's actions."

Source please.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Islam in the U.S.	12 September 2001

Muslim American Groups Denounce Terrorist Attacks

Groups also call for blood donations to help victims

By Phillip Kurata
Washington File Staff Writer

Washington -- Muslim American groups quickly denounced the terrorist attacks against the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Washington.

The leaders of nine Muslim American groups said in a joint letter to President Bush September 11, "American Muslims, who unequivocally condemned today terrorist attacks on our nation, call on you to alert fellow citizens to the fact that now is a time for all of us to stand together in the face of this heinous crime."

"We hope that the perpetrators of these crimes will be apprehended immediately and swiftly brought to justice. Muslims stand with all other Americans who, on this sad day, feel a sense of tremendous grief and loss," the Muslim American leaders added.

The letter was signed by the leaders of the American Muslim Alliance, the American Muslim Council, the Council on American-Islamic Relations, the Muslim Public Affairs Council, the Muslim American Society, the Islamic Society of North America, the Islamic Circle of North America, the Muslim Alliance in North America, and American Muslims for Jerusalem. These groups represent most of the seven million Muslims in the United States.

The Muslim American leaders in the same letter wrote to President Bush on the need to avoid "speculative accusations and stereotypical generalizations that can only serve to harm the innocent and to endanger our society and its civil liberties."

In a separate statememt, the Council on American Islamic Relations [CAIR] urged Muslim Americans to offer whatever assistance they can to the victims of the terrorist attacks.

CAIR appealed to Muslim American medical personnel to go to the scene of the attacks and offer aid to the victims, Muslim relief agencies to offer their services in the recovery efforts, and individual Muslims to donate blood to the Red Cross.

The Islamic Supreme Council of America issued a statement saying, "we join our neighbors, co-workers and friends across ethnic, cultural and religious lines in mourning the devastating loss of precious life, which Islam holds sacred." The council chairman, Shaykh Muhammad Hisham Kabbani, encouraged whoever is able to donate blood and money to the local chapters of the Red Cross.

The American Muslim Council encouraged Islamic centers to start blood drive campaigns and encouraged people in New York and Washington to donate blood.

While Muslim American groups support relief efforts, they remain sensitive to possible retaliation against Americans of Middle Eastern origin.

The American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee [ADC] said while it was "shocked and angered" by the terrorist attacks, whose perpetrators have not been identified, it urged the public and media to proceed with caution and resist rushes to judgment.

In addition to condemning the terrorist attacks, several Muslim American groups warned their members to use caution about possible harassment and attacks against them.

For example, CAIR said people who wear Islamic attire should consider staying out of public areas in the immediate future and community leaders should request additional police patrols in the vicinity of mosques and post mosque members at entrances and in parking lots of mosques during prayer times. CAIR also told its members to be on the lookout for suspicious packages, people and vehicles.

[Luis Gonzalez]

http://usinfo.state.gov/usa/islam/musresp.htm

[Luis Gonzalez]

http://islam.about.com/library/weekly/aa091102a.htm

[Luis Gonzalez]

"Look, it is obvious you are not a Christian."

Oh, but I am.

I understand that you do not wish to learn anything which may challenge your assumptions.

[Lady Heron]

source please.

Every thread at Freerepublic that has posted a poll of muslim views of 9-11 or terrorist attacks on Jews

I have already done an indepth study of islam, at a time in my life that I was very open to any religion. It is evil through and through, in my book it rates right up there with satanism, thugism or cannibalism. Just look at the repressive societies it produces for a starter, God has not blessed them. That does not even touch on all of the contridictions, or parts that are proven to be lies either though science, history or archeology. This religion was very easy to see as false.

[Luis Gonzalez]

In other words, no source.

"I have already done an indepth study of islam"

Yes, and I am Marie Antionette.

By the way, the links I posted for you refuted your crap.

[af_vet_1981]

Religion of Peace bump

The new Imam of the Grand Mosque of Rome, the largest in Europe, called for the "victory of Islamic fighters in Palestine, Cechnya and other areas of the world" in his sermon Friday, June 6. He called for Allah's help in "the destruction of the homes and destruction of the enemies of Islam". He called for their "annihilation" and "the victory everywhere of the Nation of Islam."

In a report by Magdi Allam, the Italian columnist of Egyptian origin who writes regularly about the Arab and Muslim world for the national daily, "La Repubblica", 32 year old Imam, Abdel-Samie Mahmoud Ibrahim Moussa, is quoted as having told the correspondent that suicide attacks in Israel are religiously legitimate, whereas they are not in Saudi Arabia, Morocco or Italy.

"From an Islamic viewpoint there is no doubt that the operations of the mujahidin against the Jews in Palestine are legitimate. They are missions of martyrdom and those who commit them are martyrs of Islam because all Palestine is a Dar al-harb, a territory of war. This is because all of the Jewish society illegally occupies an Islamic land."

On the other hand, in Saudi Arabia and Morocco, "Islam condemns attacks against foreigners who are hosted by the Muslim people. We have an Aqd al-wafa'a - a Covenant of loyalty with them. We welcomed them and we are responsible for their physical safety."

By the same token, Muslims living in Italy may not commit terrorist acts against Italians because an Aqd al-aman - Covenant of Security - binds them to loyalty to the State that provides for the physical safety of the resident Muslims.

These, together with rigid invocations against marital infidelity and on the dependent role of women, were some of the statements made in the sermon and the subsequent interview. During the sermon, the Imam reportedly also forbade marriage with Jewish women.

He cited three requirements for marriage with Jewish or Christian women: "1) they must be chaste, 2) they must be religious, 3) the people of their religion must not fight Muslims." He concluded, "this is why today marriage with Jewish women is forbidden."

Imam Moussa was selected by the Egyptian University "Al Azhar", by a tacit agreement with the Saudi Arabian financed Mosque of Rome. He is described as inexperienced, with no knowledge of the Italian language.

The Italian Minister of the Interior, Giuseppe Pisanu, in an interview by Magdi Allam published May 24, said "Italian mosques must be entirely freed of preachers of violence" adding "I know from bitter experience that the history of terrorism is a history of political underestimations that lead right up to the eve of tragedy."

So far there has been no official reaction by the government. Leaders of Muslim organizations in Italy have made contrasting comments to this episode, which Magdi Allam, author of several books on Islam in Italy, considers not an isolated phenomenon of the preaching of hate.

Very few openly condemned the Imam for his words, finding "excuse" in the fact that he is foreign and not used to the Italian mentality tacitly justifying such preaching in an Arab Islamic context. There are approximately one million Muslims in this country (mostly immigrants) by far outnumbering the numerically small but historically important 35.000 member Jewish Community.

He considers the majority of Muslim immigrants, a very pluralistic lot who come from all over the world, to be moderate and peaceful. However, the minority of Fundamentalists who openly espouse anti- US and anti-Israel extremist positions are harbored in some of the c.250 mosques spread across the country and by the official organizations of Islam such as the UCOII organ of the Union of Italian Islamic Communities, connected to the "Muslim Brothers", an international association of Islamic integralism originating in Egypt and responsible for the murder of Sadat, among many other acts of terrorism in the past.

The Muslim community in Italy has been dragging its feet in negotiating an "Agreement" with the Italian Government modeled on the Catholic Church-State Concordat and other "Agreements" between the government and other religious minorities including that with the Union of Italian Jewish Communities.

The main difficulties seem to lie in the lack of unified views due to the great variety of ethnic origins of the immigrants, plus the ideologies and vested interests behind official Islamic organizational structures. Italians, conditioned by the hierarchical structure of the Catholic Church which embraces about 90 per cent of the population in Italy, tend to look for hierarchical counterparts or "official voices" in other religions, which simply do not exist.

Islam in Italy has expanded enormously in the past ten years. Conversions to Islam have increased but mostly the growth is mostly due to the great waves of immigrants landing daily on Italian shores, both legally and illegally. Effective solutions to problems regarding integration are lagging behind this reality.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Yes, there are individual nutjobs everywhere in the world, of every religion.

This guy no more speaks for the whole of Islam, than Eric Rudolph speaks for the pro-life movement, Christian Identity for Christians in the US, or Jesse Jackson for all black Americans.

[af_vet_1981]

This guy no more speaks for the whole of Islam,

He does speak for Islam.

Imam Moussa was selected by the Egyptian University "Al Azhar", by a tacit agreement with the Saudi Arabian financed Mosque of Rome. He is described as inexperienced, with no knowledge of the Italian language.

He speaks for Islam but hasn't learned Italian or English yet. He is the genuine article.

[Luis Gonzalez]

"Imam Moussa was selected by the Egyptian University "Al Azhar", by a tacit agreement with the Saudi Arabian financed Mosque of Rome."

Take the time to learn about things, instead of being blindly led around by the nose.

Saudi financed means Wahhabi led, that's the problem in the world today...Wahhabism and Saudi money.

Usama bin Laden is trying to unite the Islamic world to create what has been missing...A Caliphate, roughly the equivalent of the Pope in Rome.

A Caliphate would create one individual who would in fact speak for all of Islam.

You think that idiot in Rome speaks for Islam?

I think this people do.

If not them, one of the thousands of Muslim leaders who rejected bin Laden's actions on 9/11.

Learn to think for yourself, learn to read what those people who would control you don't want you to read.

[RightWhale]

The Village Voice question

Were the Clintons hard-core hippies? They named their offspring after the Chelsea coterie. No, it could have been worse. Village Voice Clinton? Anyway, the mother managed to get part of 'Village Voice' into the title of one of her many utopian fiction books.