Berlin: A tenant had to leave his home because he flew the Israeli flag (Translation)

Israel Army Radio ^ | June 5, 2003 | Yigal Avidan, Germany

[Michael81Dus]

History just doesn´t matter. As I said upon, facts matter. And today´s facts are different to history. E.g. no German claims the right of the always-have-been-German-land of Posen, Pommern, West-, Ostpreußen, Schlesien (now Poland and Russia) anymore. Facts matter, not historic rights.

If the airport was abused, the IDF should have occupied it and took over control of the im- and export. But they prefered to slap into the EU´s face and destroy it. It was financed with MY money.

And reg the houses-destruction: has there been a sentence that found the relatives guilty of aiding and abiding for murder? NO. That what the IDF did is just self-justice, and that´s illegal. We live in states where collective guilt doesn´t exist, and that´s something we can be proud of.

The dilemma of the US and Israel is, to find solutions to fight terrorism by keeping our free society that even treats its enemies with respect. We need to fight terrorism both ways: with force and with economy. Motivation for suicide bombing needs to be defeated. That´s impossible to achieve by force, you need economy (rewarding the moderate Muslims).

[tictoc]

E.g. no German claims the right of the always-have-been-German-land of Posen, Pommern, West-, Ostpreußen, Schlesien (now Poland and Russia) anymore.

Applying that same historic parallel that you just introduced, Israel could have annexed the West Bank in 1967 (then claimed by Jordan as part of its country) and expelled all Arabs from there because Israel had been attacked by Jordan, just as Poland and Czechoslovakia etc. had been attacked by Germany.

In reality, Israel did not expel the Arabs from there. In reality, at different times Israel was willing to give back all, nearly all, or most of the acquired territory in exchange for peace, starting as early as 1967. These peace offers were ignored every time by the Arabs, with the exception of Egypt's al-Sadat, who promptly was given back the vast Sinai in 1978.

If the Warsaw pact had followed a policy similar to Israel's, then Germany would have been restored to most of its WW II losses, and most of its refugees would have returned to East Prussia etc.

Wisely, however, the Germans accepted that they lost the war, and accepted the consequences. When will you hold up the Arabs to the same standard?

If the airport was abused, the IDF should have occupied it and took over control of the im- and export. But they prefered to slap into the EU´s face and destroy it. It was financed with MY money.

This is just the kind of smarmy, arrogant self-righteousness that I've come to expect from you. First of all, you are a 22-year old university student. I doubt that you paid any income taxes last year, or if you did, that you were not repaid in full this year. I, however, pay a lot of (German) income taxes, and I'm not happy to see how the money is being spent on training future lawyers to argue deceitfully.

Second, you are outraged that the Israelis destroyed the Arab airport, but not that EU money was used to smuggle arms illegally? Where is your sense of priority? Finally, if you don't like war, then don't start one. Arafat chose war in 2000, and the Arabs in Judea, Samaria and Gaza followed. The crying and moaning at the damage is just for show, for European consumption, and you gobble it up eagerly.

And reg the houses-destruction: has there been a sentence that found the relatives guilty of aiding and abiding for murder? NO. That what the IDF did is just self-justice, and that´s illegal. We live in states where collective guilt doesn´t exist, and that´s something we can be proud of.

Don't send thousands of suicide bombers into Israel, and the houses of their families won't be flattened (after they have been made to leave). It's that simple. Also, maybe it wasn't such a good idea of the West Bank/Gaza Arabs after all to distribute videos in which the suicide bombers' mothers spoke of their pride and joy at their children's actions -- in some cases recorded before they went to blow up Israeli civilians.

The dilemma of the US and Israel is, to find solutions to fight terrorism by keeping our free society that even treats its enemies with respect. We need to fight terrorism both ways: with force and with economy. Motivation for suicide bombing needs to be defeated. That´s impossible to achieve by force, you need economy (rewarding the moderate Muslims).

More leftist propaganda from you. Terrorists deserve no respect, they must be killed. The motivation for suicide bombing is not despair but hope. Until the second Intifada, Palestinian Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza had per-capita income second only to the oil-rich Arabs and Lebanon, but ahead of all other Arab nations such as Algiers, Morocco, etc. They threw that overboard to realize their dream of destroying Israel.

[yonif]

The road map can be a way out of the vicious circle. Israel did a good decision to say that an independant Palestine is likely, now Palestinians have reason for hope

It is not a "vicious circle". It is terrorism, followed by a defensive counter-terrorist operation by Israel. Would you call what the US is doing to terrorists a "vicious circle"?

[yonif]

Palestinians feel as a people and they´re big enough to be a people

Could you please provide evidence which shows the "Palestinians" are a nation, e.g. a "people"?

[yonif]

bump to your post #55

[yonif]

bump

[adam_az]

"Palestine is the land of the Palestinians. They´re in the vast majority. No other way for peace than to get them out of Palestine."

Strangely, Jews are the "real" Palestinians. The word is derived from the name the Romans gave to conquered Israel.

[adam_az]

Could you please provide evidence which shows the "Palestinians" are a nation, e.g. a "people"?

Of course he can't Der Spiegel hasn't published an article by someone name Muhammad about that, yet.

[Michael81Dus]

Palestinians are a people, that is a matter of fact. What makes out a people? A feeling to be stick together, a common history, similar traditions, etc - the process is flowing. They also have the land (well not formally yet, but soon), so that they just need a state structure to become a real state.

[Michael81Dus]

I will not respond to your insulting post, which lacks basic informations about my person and is not more than an irrational post of your hate feelings.

[Michael81Dus]

"defensive"? The counter-terrorism is not so defensive when it comes to the destruction of houses, airports etc. I have told you my point of view on that issues.

The actions of the IDF cause more hatred and more suicide-bombers, the suicide bombers cause more repressive actions of Israel, that leads to more hatred against Israel, and so on. By giving Palestinians their own state and a responsible leadership Israel will take from many Palestinians the reason for hatred.

[austinTparty]

Actually, Germany has the fastest growing Jewish population of any county. The Jewish population there grew from 33,000 in 1990 to over 200,000 today. Most go there seeking refuge from anti-semitisim in their home countries (former Soviet republics for the most part). In addition, a new rabbinical seminary has just been opened in Potsdam to serve the rapidly growing Jewish population.

[Michael81Dus]

I know, and on the one hand I think it´s good (we should be glad that they choose us), but on the other hand we should restrict immigration in general: so many come to us and just don´t learn German. I´ve read, that entire communities speak Russian (and for Muslims Turkish or Arab). That´s not the way it should be, we´re not a Russian (Turkish) colony.

[austinTparty]

Well, the difference is--most of these immigrants are well-educated. Once they learn German, they are a boon to the society. Their children will also be high achievers. Actually, many of them are going to Germany because their families were historically ethnic Germans. I doubt that these immigrants will be as much of a drain on the economy as many of the Ossis are currently. Language can be taught, work ethic--I'm not so sure.

[Michael81Dus]

I admit that people from the East are probably more willing to integrate. The barrier religion isn´t there (and I don´t consider the jewish and Christian religions not that much different in its values) like it is when Muslims come over.

I have seen many good examples, but even real bad ones... there´s always an individual part to be played by the immigrants.

[adam_az]

"Palestinians are a people, that is a matter of fact. What makes out a people? A feeling to be stick together, a common history, similar traditions, etc - the process is flowing."

Before 1948, "Palestinian" referred to Jews. Yet another thing the Arabs co-opted. Palestinians are Arabs, no different culturally than other Arabs.

Please tell me how Palestinians are culturally different from say, Jordanians or Syrian Arabs. Or Egyptian arabs. DO they have a a distinctive language? A distinctive culture? WHo are their great leaders throughout history Before say, 1940.)

Can you counter any of these quotes? They show conclusively that Palestinians are not a "people."


Statement by Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi to the Pell Commission in 1937 -
"There is no such country as 'Palestine'; 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented!"
-
"One always finds in Palestine Arabs who have been in the country only a few weeks or a few months...Since they are themselves strangers in a strange land, they are the loudest to cry: 'Out with the Jews!...Amongst them are to be found representatives of every Arab country: Arabs from Transjordan, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Egypt, the Sudan and Iraq."

(Ladislas Farago, Palestine at the Crossroads (New York: Putnam 1937) p17
-
Declaration of the 8th Palestinian National Congress

"Jordan is linked to Palestine by a national relationship and a national unity forged by history and culture from earliest times. The creation of one political entity in East Jordan and another in Palestine would have no basis either in legality or as to the elements universally accepted as fundamental to a political entity. "
-(R. Hamid (ed.) Muqararat al-majlis al-watani al-filastini 1964 Resolutions of the PNCs 1964-1974, Beirut, PLO Research Centre, 1975, p178 Declaration of the 8th Palestinian National Congress)
-
"This (Jerusalem) for them (the Arabs) was not in 'Palestine'. For the Arabs (And the Turks) the whole of the region lying between the Taurus Mountains and the confines of Egypt, and between the Mediterranean and the edge of the desert, was 'Syria' a term which had been in use since remote antiquity. "
-(Sir Geoffrey Furlonge, Palestine is My Country, The Story of Mussa Alami (New York, 1969) p. 7
-
Arab MK, Abdul Darawshe said [Jerusalem Institute of Western
Defence, Bulletin 3, August 15, 1997]:"There is no difference between one Palestinian and another. We are all
Palestinians and we are all Syrian Arabs."
-

[Michael81Dus]

As I said, history is irrelevant since the situation has changed, so don´t come with quotes from the 30´s of the last century.

Is the Austrian people different from the German (and in particular of the Bavarian)? Is the "people of Liechtenstein" (ca. 40.000 citizen) different to the German people, or the "people of Monaco" different to the French people? Not really, though they´re sovereign states.

I think that the Palestinians feel as a nation, they don´t want to be dependant on Syria, Jordan or anyone else. That´s what matters. The terms and feelings have changed. Within the last decades, Palestinians became a nation and the term Palestinians is used for the Arabs living in WB and Gaza. Abdul Darawshe even said that he felt as a Palestinian ("We are all Palestinians..").

We acknowledge that the people of Palestine want to be a sovereign nation and according to Woodrow Wilson, every people has the right to decide about its future on its own. The Palestinians have chosen independancy and that´s their right by matter of fact they and Israel have made.

[yonif]

Please tell me how Palestinians are culturally different from say, Jordanians or Syrian Arabs. Or Egyptian arabs. DO they have a a distinctive language? A distinctive culture? WHo are their great leaders throughout history Before say, 1940.)

Bingo.

[yonif]

Palestinians are a people, that is a matter of fact. What makes out a people? A feeling to be stick together, a common history, similar traditions, etc - the process is flowing. They also have the land (well not formally yet, but soon), so that they just need a state structure to become a real state.

Please direct me to some evidence which provides support for your claim that "Palestinians" are different then other Arabs in their history, traditions, etc. THe fact is there isn't any. They are mostly Jordanians and Egyptians (Arafat is Egyptian). Jordan is considered 80% "Palestinian." They have no right to the land as Jordan relinquised any claim to that land, therefore, spreading propaganda supporting that the Arabs in those areas are a "people" which deserve a state. This is all a plan for Israel to cede more land so it becomes more vulnerable. WHy do you think Israel was forced to take land after the 1967 war? For defensive purposes. These Arabs already have a state and 20 others to go to. The Arab world refuses to allow them in, cause then they will lose their execuse of being hateful of Israel, etc.

[yonif]

"defensive"? The counter-terrorism is not so defensive when it comes to the destruction of houses, airports etc.

Houses that are destroyed belonged to terrorists, or their related activities. Secondly, please provide evidence that Israel destroyed "airports." There is only one in Gaza and it is operational.

I have told you my point of view on that issues. The actions of the IDF cause more hatred and more suicide-bombers, the suicide bombers cause more repressive actions of Israel, that leads to more hatred against Israel, and so on. By giving Palestinians their own state and a responsible leadership Israel will take from many Palestinians the reason for hatred.

Really? You really believe that? If so, please explain why these same terrorists, same actions, occured before 1967, when Gaza, the west bank, and eastern Jerusalem were in the hands of the Arab world, and also, please explain why these "Palestinians" didn't push for a state then? Surely they would have gotten it right? From their Arab buddies.