Rumsfeld Said to Pick Retired General to Head Army

AP News via New York Times ^ | June 10, 2003 | By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

[harpseal]

I wonder if someone will mention Al Gore?

[harpseal]

If he went to see what is going on that is possibly a good thing as well as possibly a bad thing.

[bert]

Concur

[Poohbah]

Lt. Hultgren was not qualified to wash a Tomcat, let alone fly one. That is a fact. She committed safety errors that would have gotten better men sent packing. She had multiple downs in the training command. Many NFO's refused to fly with her. Her death was tragic because she had no business in that airplane. The Tomcat is a difficult airplane under the best conditions. The Navy killed that girl, because they were under orders.

What's interesting is that the Air Farce, for all its warts and flaws, handled bringing women onto combat aircrew duties much more professionally.

Remember Lieutenant Kelly Flynn? How many Navy Captains or flag officers would have sent her up for a court-martial like the Air Force did?

[Pukin Dog]

Poohbah, the truth is that the AF had more problems than we did. They were only better at PR, and keeping leaks under control. They had fewer women make it as a percentage through their pipeline even though they had easier aircraft and conditions to deal with.(not to mention long runways) AF standards were always lower than the Navy's because they place more emphasis on procedures and regimentation. In the Navy, flying (and CARQUALS in particular) comes first.

[colorado tanker]

Bump for University of Wyoming ROTC, the "Cowboy Battalion"!

[Poohbah]

They had fewer women make it as a percentage through their pipeline

Yeah, because they actually enforced their standards.

[Pukin Dog]

No they did not.

The AF was first to allow corrected vision in the front seat. This was done because they could not find enough good eyes among the females who could manage not to kill themselves. The Navy was forced to follow suit to not lose good candidates out of college.

The AF accepts 20/50 for pilots and 20/200 for WSOs correctible to 20/20. The Navy still requires 20/30 correctable for pilots and 20/40 for NFOs.

[Steel and Fire and Stone]

But he's also got a background in Armor--so it's not a foreign concept to him.

Flag and General Officers usually have a pretty good grasp of how to use the resources (manpower) and assets (equipment) at their disposal. He will have at least a M.A./M.S., very likely a PH.D., and has probably both attended and taught at the War College.

Special Operators appreciate and depend on field support. While it's true that they go in deep in small teams, they aren't without support. A senior Spec. Ops guy, whether he's a Ranger, SEAL, Marine Recon, etc., will be well aware of the value of heavy armor versus LAV's, and Apache's versus A10's, A10's versus fast-movers, and NGFS versus artillery tubes versus F/A 18's. (Hint: Precision guided munitions put the Battleships out of business as NGFS platforms, not missles or the cost of operations.)

What I really like about Special Operators, at least the guys I've served with, is that they are very "close to the ground", both psychologically and in many cases, literally. They don't have time or luxury for B.S.. Stuff works or it doesn't. Tactics work or people die.

I'm a Navy guy, but I respect the other services roles and perogatives, and hope this works out.

FReegards, SFS.

[Phsstpok]

WOW. All of one?! As opposed to the guys who regularly turn cartwheels across the flight deck or who go into vertical climbs to impress their parents on their way out of Millington?

from what I hear John McCain was a "limited talent" pilot, who wouldn't have seen pilots wings, let alone combat, except for his connections.

Female pilots may actually have some advantages over men in high G situations, physiologically, and it is yet to be proven, one way or the other, how they will do psychologically.

Now, I'm not particularly aware of any problems with vertical climb outs from Millington. Doesn't mean they don't happen, or didn't in the past. However, the most recent such incident I'm aware of that was in Tennessee, was, I think, an F-14 leaving Nashville, wasn't it? That one just augered in, what, about 2 years ago? He was doing a viking takeoff to impress the folks and lost an engine, or ingested a bird, or both.

[rabidralph]

Somewhere in Tennessee, yes. I thought it was Millington because of the base there. But he was showing off for the folks and had some sort of mechanical problem and died.

[VaBthang4]

No problems at first glance. Would've been cool if Beckwith had gotten the job....man that would've pissed off alot of the divas.

Go Rummy.

[Pukin Dog]

Female pilots may actually have some advantages over men in high G situations, physiologically, and it is yet to be proven, one way or the other, how they will do psychologically.

Cannot speak for the AF, but female aviators in the Navy have had a problem with aggresiveness. Too much thinking, defensive instead of offensive initiative. This goes for not only combat situations, but in staying ahead of the airplane. Women do much better in Hornets than they do in Tomcats because anticipation of what the airplane will do is not required, while the Tomcat can have a mind of it's own. Short, compact bodies do have a small G advantage.

[Pukin Dog]

In the case of the crash in Nashville, that was a guy named Stacy Bates, who was already under scrutiny, because he had already wrecked a Tomcat off of Hawaii. He was very good and aggresive in the air, but not safe. He stalled an engine coming over the top, and stayed in a dive trying to get a re-light. He stayed with the aircraft too long, knowing that if he wrecked a second Tomcat, he was done as a pilot.

He came from the Navy's worst squadron at that time, VF-213; the same squadron as Lt. Hultgren.

[VaBthang4]

"Female pilots may actually have some advantages over men in high G situations, physiologically, and it is yet to be proven, one way or the other, how they will do psychologically."

Do they have advantages over Men in High S[tress] situations?

Just had to drop that one in there.

When I was younger I shot a drunk and armed intruder coming into my parents home. My Mom & Sister completely lost it!! I mean lost it...running through the house screaming and crying...LOL...I actually had to walk into the kitchen and phone 911 in order to get the ball rolling. Mind you, my Mother is married to a former Recon Marine and she herself is in charge of nationwide distribution for a Forbes 500 company. She's a pitbull. But when it got overwhelmingly salient...she went dramaqueen.

There isnt a test on the planet or any amount of statistical results that'll remove "my impression of women under stressful situations" from my head. They're just not wired for it, and no amount of slanted discussion or impure data is ever gonna change that.

[Phsstpok]

Somewhere in Tennessee, yes. I thought it was Millington because of the base there. But he was showing off for the folks and had some sort of mechanical problem and died.

sounds like the one I'm thinking of. I'm pretty sure it was an F14 and I know the incident I'm thinking of was Nashville. Being an F14 it would have had both a pilot and a RIO (radio / intercept officer, I think) and checking the web, it looks like they both died.

I did a Google search on "+f14 +nashville +crash" and came up with a couple of hits. One article confirmed that pilot error finding, though it doesn't metion the "showing off for the folks" that I remember from the time. The other just gives the basic info from the crash itself. That hit was at:

http://www.tomcattersassociation.org/F14/f14-news.htm

What stunned me was that I thought this was only a couple of years ago. This was January of 1996!!

Millington still has military planes fly in and out, but not near what they used to. The Naval air station has been closed (no longer training plane mechanics) and the majority of the base has been turned over to the city. There is still a military area, but its a clerical office. The airfield gets used for some military tasks (combat air patrol sometimes is based there during high alerts) but is supposed to be mostly civilian now. Just a couple of weeks ago, however, they had a big air show, including the Blue Angels. I didn't get to go, but friends who went said they had a larger presence of more different active military aircraft than they had seen in a long time.

[Pukin Dog]

The RIO was Graham Higgins, a young kid, who trusted Bates instead of departing the airplane. He was like 27-28, right out of the RAG.

[Phsstpok]

There isnt a test on the planet or any amount of statistical results that'll remove "my impression of women under stressful situations" from my head. They're just not wired for it, and no amount of slanted discussion or impure data is ever gonna change that.

I've found that both men and women can come apart at the seams under stressful circumstances. I've worked with women on ambulance runs where drugged out psycho's came at us with knives and the woman in question took the guy out. She handled it because it was her job. I know of an incident where the same woman fell apart and "freaked out" after a killing (by police) when she was off duty and it wasn't her problem. It can be a matter of circumstance. I never have a problem with a trauma case (don't get shook or emotionally stressed) when I'm in a position to help. I've got a job to do and don't have time. I'll get just as strung out and stressed as anyone, man or woman, if it's not my job to "go to work" because I don't have that reflex to fall back on.

People all react differently and the same people will react differently to different situations. I'm glad you were there to take care of your family. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to have had your mom take care of business in the same manner if you weren't there to shoulder the burden for her. Don't sell people short. You'd be surprised, both for the good and the bad, at what some people can do under the right set of circumstances.

[Phsstpok]

I gather you fly (flew?) the 14? I have always been in awe of what combat pilots can do with the machines they command. I remember I enjoyed a really dumb ass scifi time travel movie, The Final Countdown, simply because they used a real F14 squadron to do their flying. There was one amazing scene of an encounter between a pair of F14s and a pair of Zeros (don't ask). The work those pilots had to (apparently) go through to work against such incredibly slow aircraft was amazing.

Did you know the RIO in question? God rest both of them.

[rabidralph]

What stunned me was that I thought this was only a couple of years ago. This was January of 1996!!

Time flies, don't it. The initial news report said that his parents were at the airport/air field watching him take off. So he probably wanted to do something special for them and it went horribly wrong. A retroactive Hold muh beer! alert.