Minutemen of the Third Reich ("Werewolf" guerilla movement - postwar sabotage & terror not new)

History Today (via FindArticles.com) ^ | October 2000 | Perry Biddiscombe

[Austin Willard Wright]

A few people compared in potshots here are here are trivial compared to the current death toll of Americans. Making comparisons without evidence is irresponsible with all due apologies to Saint Rummy.

[Austin Willard Wright]

that's a few people killed.

[ellery]

Do you know how many allied casualties there were after WWII? If not, then how can you assert it's a "few people killed here and there?" Seems to me you're the one making assertions without evidence.

[Austin Willard Wright]

I don't know....although I do know that the folks at the Center for Military History dimiss the comparison.

It is *you* who is making the claim that the situations are comparable. I am perfectly willing to admit I am wrong....but can't possibly do that if the folks who make this comparison don't even try to present evidence!

[ellery]

This article presents evidence that the situations are comparable: i.e., that in both cases there were/are guerilla movements after major combat operations have ended.

You have stated that the only evidence you will accept is specific casualty statistics. I disagree that this is the only meaningful statistic -- I believe that the more relevant evidence is that occupying powers have confronted and successfully overcome guerilla movements in the past. If we can't agree on what evidence proves our respective cases, then I respectfully submit that there's no point to further discussion of this. Regardless, time will tell...:-)

[ellery]

Here's a somewhat different example of a traditional war that turned into a guerilla war (one that we eventually won). It doesn't seem to me to be as comparable a situation, since in the case of the Phillipines we were trying to colonize...but this one does have casualty figures. We had more than 4000 US KIAs b/c of the guerilla war -- but still won in the end.

http://www.historyguy.com/PhilipineAmericanwar.html
DESCRIPTION OF CONFLICT:

As early 1899, U.S. and Filipino forces faced off as a tense situation became worse. American forces held the capitol of Manila, while Aguinaldo's army occupied a trench-line surrounding the city. On the evening of February 4, 1899, Private William Grayson of the Nebraska Volunteers fired the first shot in what would turn out to be a very bloody war. Grayson shot at a group of Filipinos approaching his position, provoking an armed response. Shooting soon spread up and down the ten-mile U.S.-Filipino lines, causing hundreds of casualties. Upon the outbreak of hostilities, U.S. troops, supported by shelling from Admiral Dewey's fleet, quickly overwhelmed the Filipino positions while inflicting thousands of casualties. Within days, American forces spread outward from Manila, using superior firepower, mobile artillery and command of the sea to full effect.

By November of 1899, Aguinaldo and his forces had been pushed further and further into central Luzon (the main Philippine island) and he realized he could not fight the Americans with conventional military units. At this point, he ordered his followers to turn to guerilla tactics to combat the American army. From this point on, the war became a savage, no-holds-barred guerilla conflict made up of ambushes, massacres and retribution. Both sides engaged in wanton violence and slaughter. Villages were destroyed, civilians murdered, prisoners tortured and mutilated along with a host of other atrocities. Many American officers and non-coms had served in the Indian Wars, and thus applied the old belief that "the only good Indian was a dead Indian" to their relations with the Filipinos. This attitude of course was reciprocated by the native forces.

Emilio Aguinaldo was captured in March, 1902, and organized opposition from his followers soon faded. Despite the official end to hostilities proclaimed on July 4, 1902, individual tribes in Luzon and the Muslim Moros of the southern islands launched further uprisings for another decade or so.

CONSEQUENCES OF CONFLICT:

1. Independence for the Philippines was delayed until 1946.
2. The United States acquired an overseas colony which served as a base for U.S. business and military interests in the Asia/Pacific region.

3. Following the conclusion of major hostilities, the U.S. did it's best to "Americanize" the Philippines. Through successful civilian administration, the Islands were modernized and the nation prepared for eventual independence. The Philippines became an independent nation on July 4, 1946.



CASUALTY FIGURES:

U.S.-- 4,234 dead and 2,818 wounded.
Philippines-- 20,000 military dead and 200,000 civilian dead. (approximate numbers). Some historians place the numbers of civilian dead at 500,000 or higher.

[Austin Willard Wright]

The Phillipine insurgency, not a pretty picture at all, is your best comparison. The post-war German "insurgency" is probably a non starter, at least if the folks at the Center for Military History know anything.

[visualops]

In light of recent disinformation and the Presidents speech, it's time for a BTTT.