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Regarding the (missing) Amonium Nitrate..
Me | 7-21-03 | CygnusXI

Posted on 07/21/2003 8:06:13 AM PDT by CygnusXI

This is my first post (not reply), so please be kind...

Anyway, I was reading here at FR about the missing Amonium Nitrate. Several people commented about how it was a "slow" explosive material (when made to be one).

Does that also imply that it burns at a low temp?

The reason I ask is this. You know that low level radiological materials have been reported missing here and there. Would such a slow incindiary device be more condusive for a dirty bomb, or would optimum dispersal come from a quick, hot burning device?

I'm concerned about this aspect...

I was also made aware that this stuff is used in the manufacture of illegal drugs. Let's hope that is the case.

BTW, any word on that 1100 pounds?


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: ammonium; amoniumnitrate; bomb; nitrate

1 posted on 07/21/2003 8:06:13 AM PDT by CygnusXI
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To: CygnusXI
I'll take a crack at that.

Ammonium Nitrate when combined with Fuel Oil makes an explosive known as ANFO. This is the stuff with which the Murrah Office Building in Oklahoma City was brought down. If recollection serves, it was also the stuff the Islamists used in '93 to try to blow up the Trade Centers (killing one, wounding 60?).

It does burn quite hot, but that is irrelevant to whether it could spread radiological matter. If I've got my physics right, the heat or blast of an explosion cannot alter the radioactivity of a substance. So, ANFO would make a fine accelerant for the dispersal of radioactive material.

On the subject of newsworthiness, I suspect that Ammonium Nitrate goes missing all across the country every day. It is fertilizer. Bad record keeping probably accounts for most of the missing stuff. Maybe a little shoplifting. Perhaps it is used in methamphetamine manufacture, which would make it a good target of druggies.

Low level radioactive material probabaly also goes missing with some regularity.

Some enterprising Islamist could try to combine an ANFO bomb with radioactive material, if they could scour the country for the stuff, or import the radioactive material. This is a well known risk, for which the Department of Homeland Security is preparing.

For example, I have heard of radioactivity alarms going off at ports and airports. Radiologists are now writing letters for their patients so that they can get on an airplane after cancer treatments.

Further, I believe that the effects of such a dirty bomb are more psychological than physical. People would freak out and flee the area after such a blast. But, you could probably live there and eat the crops after awhile.

So I see no new risk in the information you cite. It is a known, moderate risk for which controls are in place.

2 posted on 07/21/2003 8:33:55 AM PDT by Uncle Miltie (Racism is the codified policy of the USA .... - The Supremes)
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To: CygnusXI
A low order explosive (slow) has a lower expansion speed. The explosion has a 'pushing' effect. A high order, or fast. explosive has more brisance, or shattering effect.

In short, you push stuff (dirt, for example) around with low-order explosives and you'd shatter stuff (like breaking up rock) with a high-order explosive.

/dimly-recalled combat engineer training
3 posted on 07/21/2003 8:57:46 AM PDT by Riley
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To: CygnusXI
The rapidity with which an explosive develops its maximum pressure is a measure of the quality known as brisance. A brisant explosive is one in which the maximum pressure is attained so rapidly that the effect is to shatter any material in contact with it and all surrounding material.

source

ANFO would be regarded as a low brisant explosive, neaning it explodes relatively slowly and with lower shattering power.

About dirty bombs...think about the size of a bomb needed to spread any type of material (radioactive or otherwise) over a large area. The smoke from the OK city bomb probably settled over a relatively small and localized area.

The so called dirty bombs are the kind of things tailor made to make folk paranoid and irrational. the enterprising terrorist could find better, more effective and easier ways to spread various types of pollutants than explosives...

4 posted on 07/21/2003 9:09:16 AM PDT by fod
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To: CygnusXI
In the military and elsewhere you are taught there are three types of explosive charges based upon the speed of the sequence of explosion and the amount of explosive gas released. There are thrusting or pushing explosives, intermediate explosives, and cracking explosives, Thrusting explosives such as ammoniumm nitrate and old black powder tent to explode at a rate of 4,000 to 12,000 feet per second and push against their environment. They can move stone in quarries. Something like TNT tends to go off at about 18,000 feet per second. PETN tends to propagate the ezplosive train at 27,000 feet per second and will cut or fracture metal or anything else like a welding torch at that rate.
5 posted on 07/21/2003 9:09:58 AM PDT by RLK
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To: CygnusXI
This is my first post (not reply), so please be kind...

Welcome to posting on FR! Is that kind enough?

Now, don't ever post another idiotic message!!!!!

Just teasing. Actually, that is one of the top 5 questions I have seen asked here in over 5 years.

6 posted on 07/21/2003 9:32:46 AM PDT by jammer (Nasa knows why Columbia crashed. Now all they need to figure out is why they still exist)
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To: CygnusXI
Yeah. Welcome to FR.

My question is, if the explosive were stolen from a construction site, why would they be using Ammonium Nitrate, which is a fertilizer.

I thought that ANFO was more of a jury-rigged explosive that is used by people who can't get the real stuff.

Wouldn't a legitimate commercial user be able to get the real stuff, like dynamite.
7 posted on 07/21/2003 10:20:14 AM PDT by dinasour
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To: dinasour
Wouldn't a legitimate commercial user be able to get the real stuff, like dynamite.

Probably ease of handling, coupled with the low-speed qualities noted above. Dynamite would probably shatter rocks in a quarry -- not really what one wants if you're looking for granite blocks.

8 posted on 07/21/2003 10:26:38 AM PDT by r9etb
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To: dinasour
I thought that ANFO was more of a jury-rigged explosive that is used by people who can't get the real stuff.

------------------------------

It is the real stuff. It has been used in quarries and earth moving for years.

9 posted on 07/21/2003 10:29:11 AM PDT by RLK
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To: RLK
"It is the real stuff. It has been used in quarries and earth moving for years."

Thanks. Pardon my ignorance about blowing stuff up.


10 posted on 07/21/2003 10:56:29 AM PDT by dinasour
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