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Is the West Too Civilized?
CNSNews.com ^ | July 22, 2003 | Daniel Pipes

Posted on 07/22/2003 7:21:19 AM PDT by Tailgunner Joe

"Since the events of 9/11," observes Lee Harris, America's reigning philosopher of 9/11, "the policy debate in the United States has been primarily focused on a set of problems -- radical Islam and the War on Terrorism, the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, and weapons of mass destruction in the hands of Saddam Hussein in Iraq."

We sense that these three problems are related, Harris notes in an article at TechCentralStation.com, but we can't quite figure out how. He proposes a subtle link between these seemingly disparate issues -- and it's not specifically their common Muslim identity. Rather, it has to do with their unearned power.

"All previous threats in the history of mankind have had one element in common. They were posed by historical groups that had created the weapons -- both physical and cultural -- that they used to threaten their enemies." States achieved their military power through their own labor and sacrifice, developing their own economies, organizing their societies, training their own troops, and building their own arsenals.

But the same cannot be said of the threats emanating from the Muslim world. Al-Qaeda destroys airplanes and buildings that it itself could not possibly build. The Palestinian Authority has failed in every field of endeavor except killing Israelis. Saddam Hussein's Iraq grew dangerous thanks to money showered on it by the West to purchase petroleum Iraqis themselves had neither located nor extracted.

How, despite their general incompetence, has this trio managed to guide the course of events as if they were Powers in the traditional sense?

The cause of this anomaly, Harris replies, is that the West plays by a strict set of rules while permitting Al-Qaeda, the Palestinians, and Saddam Hussein to play without rules. We restrain ourselves according to the standards of civilized conduct as refined over the centuries; they engage in maximal ruthlessness.

Had the United States retaliated in kind for 9/11, Harris tells me, the Islamic holy places would have been destroyed. Had Israelis followed the Arafat model of murderousness, the West Bank and Gaza would now be devoid of Palestinians. Had the West done toward Iraq as Iraq did toward Kuwait, the Iraqi polity would long ago have been annexed and its oil resources confiscated.

While morally commendable, Harris argues, the West's not responding to Muslim ruthlessness with like ruthlessness carries a high and rising price. It allows Muslim political extremists of various stripes to fantasize that they earned their power, when in fact that power derives entirely from the West's arch-civilized restraint.

This confusion prompts Muslim extremists to indulge in the error that their successes betoken a superior virtue, or even God's support. Conversely, they perceive the West''s restraint as a sign of its decadence. Such fantasies, Harris contends, feed on themselves, leading to ever-more demented and dangerous behavior.

Westerners worry about the security of electricity grids, computer bugs, and water reservoirs; can a nuclear attack on a Western metropolis be that remote? Western restraint, in other words, insulates its enemies from the deserved consequences of their actions, and so unintentionally encourages their bad behavior.

For the West to reverse this process requires much rougher means than it prefers to use. Harris, author of a big-think book on this general subject coming out from the Free Press in early 2004, contends that Old Europe and most analysts have failed to fathom the imperative for a change. The Bush administration, however, has figured it out and in several ways (all of which surfaced during the Iraq campaign) has begun implementing an unapologetic and momentous break with past restraints:

- Preempt: Knock out fantasist leaders (the Taliban, Saddam Hussein, Yasir Arafat) before they can do more damage.

- Rehabilitate: Dismantle their polities, then reconstruct these along civilized lines.

- Impose a double standard: Act on the premise that the U.S. government alone "is permitted to use force against other agents who are not permitted to use force."

In brief, until those Harris calls "Islamic fantasists" play by the rules, Washington must be prepared to act like them, without rules.

This appeal for America to act less civilized will offend some; but it does offer a convincing explanation for the inner logic of America''s tough new foreign policy.


TOPICS: Editorial; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; Philosophy; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: danielpipes; september12era; thewest
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To: JohnGalt
the Allies defeated Nazi Germany because the United State government could field an army with nearly unlimited machines of war and a capable, seasoned military leadership in the field.

Sore-loser Southerners make the same claim about the Yankees (the boys in blue, not the guys in pinstripes).

41 posted on 07/23/2003 10:14:37 AM PDT by Alouette
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To: SJackson; Yehuda; Nachum; adam_az; LarryM; American in Israel; ReligionofMassDestruction; ...
Ping.
42 posted on 07/23/2003 10:15:23 AM PDT by yonif
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To: Tailgunner Joe; All
"Is the West Too Civilized?"

Obviously, the author hasn't been around DU lately...

43 posted on 07/23/2003 10:17:57 AM PDT by jriemer (We are a Republic not a Democracy)
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To: Alouette
So might makes right, basically?

What political persuasion does that theory come from?

I am certain it's not American conservatism.
44 posted on 07/23/2003 10:18:16 AM PDT by JohnGalt (They're All Lying)
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To: JohnGalt
War doesn't determine who's right. War determines who's left.
45 posted on 07/23/2003 10:19:05 AM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: nopardons
Pipes certainly stated a very dialectic position; that sort of rationalization is normally the preserve of liberal/socialist/communist sorts of collectivists, although lately corporate management seems to be embracing the philosophy and putting it into practice as well.

I didn't compare Pipes to Potempkin the man, I compared him to the village. Naturally if you don't find his logic "un-conservative", the analogy wouldn't resonate with you.

I wasn't referring to our continued success in Afghanistan; I support the retaliatory effort there, that wasn't pre-emptive. Another name for pre-emptive is "prior restraint." Regarding a Christian culture and a Moslem culture, it's easy to see which one's morality approves of such tactics. Aside from the pragmatics of seeing Iraquis get their delayed justice, one concern I have over this precedent is how the policy will be applied in the future when the pendulum swings and a Demosocialist is elected.

I'll defer to your expertise what the consensus is on the "Arab Street", and hope a behavior change accompanies whatever shift in attitude you are sensing. Why should I care about the change of volume of the stupid rhetoric coming out of socialist Europe?

Pardon me if you think I offended you. I was discussing ideas and Pipes specifically, but I appreciate your emphatic defense of his prophetic article.

46 posted on 07/23/2003 10:28:22 AM PDT by LibTeeth
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To: JohnGalt
He tried to prove it. You disagree. Its normal. Does not mean that he is an idiot if could not convince you.

Harms way: the Bush team and intellectuals supporting it came to conclusion that the price of inaction will be worse that the price of acting now. I don't remember anybody in-power saying that this is an easy situation with easy and painless solution. I don't think that they decided to act with disregard to lives of soldiers. Isn't it a part of W appeal that people believe he really cares?

47 posted on 07/23/2003 10:29:26 AM PDT by Tolik
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Don't confuse a lack or will, resolve, and values with being "civilized" ...
48 posted on 07/23/2003 10:37:24 AM PDT by spodefly (This is my tagline. There are many like it, but this one is mine.)
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To: Tolik
Pipes did not try to prove anything; he was merely writing Harris's (whom Pipes alleges is a preeminent philosopher of our times) thoughts in paraphrased form.


49 posted on 07/23/2003 10:41:23 AM PDT by JohnGalt (They're All Lying)
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To: Tolik
Re:"Isn't it a part of W appeal that people believe he really cares?"

Absolutely. But remember, the liberals used the same argument to support Clinton. I'd hate to think that's a reason for turning a blind eye to policies-that if carried out by a democrat- one would otherwise be critical of. Sadly, not too many politicians on either side of the aisle look very good in the light of Constitutional, limited government.

50 posted on 07/23/2003 11:03:12 AM PDT by LibTeeth
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To: JohnGalt
Killing to protect one's property, family or friends is not much different than killing an enemy soldier in a firefight. Both examples require a temporary suspension of our rules of civilized behavior in order to 'get the job done'. Sometimes our instinct for violence must get the better of our civilized selves; paradoxically in order to preserve our civlized selves. I'm not trying to draw a connection to troop tactics, although it appears that D. Pipes might be.

This observation stems from a personal experience. During the course of a community search for a missing girl I overheard a 'joke' made by an individual to his friends. The remark was offensive and entirely out of place given the circumstances, but everyone seemed to treat it as nothing more that a distasteful joke. However, I was nearly overwhelmed with an instinctual urge to kill the man who made the offending remark. It was quite a powerful urge but my civilized sensibilities reasoned me out of acting on instinct.

About 6 months later I saw the same individual on the evening news as he was being arrested for the murders of two teenaged girls. At some instinctual level I had recognized the danger posed by this person yet my civliized self had come to his rescue. Had I acted on the impulse the action might have prevented the death of the second girl by drawing attention to this individual (he had provided a DNA sample several years before in connection with a series of rapes, but the sample had inexplicably never been examined). Of course all of this speculative hindsight, but the fact remains that my instinct was correct where my reasoning was wrong.

BTW, I found nothing offensive in either of your responses.

51 posted on 07/23/2003 11:45:36 AM PDT by moni kerr (Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way)
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To: Tailgunner Joe
There's a very clear line between civilized and "PC", i.e. idiotic, suicidal, clueless.

Is it necessary to elaborate?

52 posted on 07/23/2003 11:54:10 AM PDT by Publius6961 (Californians are as dumm as a sack of rocks)
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To: JohnGalt
Pipes' only failing is he discriminates between "radical" islam and islam.

Personally I don't think he believes it, but uses it as a tool to attack the real enemy, islam.

President Bush doesn't say we're going into a stinking arab muslim hell hole and kill a bunch of muslims, but that's what the net effect is.

53 posted on 07/23/2003 7:41:42 PM PDT by Binyamin
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To: LibTeeth
Obviously, you can neither write clear and coherent English and don't know what a " POTEMPKIN VILLAGE " is. You can't compare his ideas and logic to a false fronted, nonexistant village.

Pipes is an expert on Islam/Islamonazi fantasists fanatics/and the Middle East. No one is claiming that he is a " Conservative " or a " Liberal "; his politics are not the point.Unlike YOU, he knows what he's talking about. It should; however, give you great pause, that CAIR, Edward Said, etc. hate this man and gripe about what he says & writes.

Your preoccupation with " worry over what future presidents will do ( Dem implied " is factuous at best. Clinton, long ago, pulled what can easily be called any number of things; from " WAG THE DOG ", to yes a " premptive strike " ! He never followed through, though and THAT is precisely WHY we have been viewed , by many others, as a " PAPER TIGER ", decayed, toothless, and easy prey. From Carter and the hostages, to Reagan and the Lebbanon strikes against the Marines , to Clinton and the African embasies, the USS Cole,Somalia, first WTC bombings, our retaliatory actions have been zip, nada, turn tail and run.

" Christian culture " ? Might I remind you of the CRUSADES ?

That you neither know, nor care enough to educate yourself about the ARAB STREET and what the French/German/Belgium group is saying, is proof that you shouldn't even attempt to post your " thoughts " on FR. YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING, YET, IMAGINE THAT YOUR VIEWS, BASED ON NOTHING, MATTER. Of course, you're wrong !

Your comments are OFFENSIVE to anyone who is even somewhat intelligent.

54 posted on 07/23/2003 9:26:17 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: Tolik
Thanks for posting all of that; however, it did no good, I see.

Unfortunately, there are those here, who without much knowledge and less understanding, set themselves up as " experts ", who impugn REAL experts , for NO valid reason.

55 posted on 07/23/2003 9:56:32 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: JohnGalt
Only a " true " idiot, would spew such utter claptrap, as you continually do.

And, which " HUNS " are you alluding to ; Attilla's band or the Germans during WW I ? If the former, then YES, the Europeans had NEVER before seen the likes of those HUNS.

Tojo, and the VC were NEVER referred to , as you claim.

Your appalling lack of factual knowledge should alarm you; but I see that it doesn't. Pity that. ;^)

56 posted on 07/23/2003 9:59:55 PM PDT by nopardons
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To: wideawake
Thanks for that post! Hadn't thought of Nietzsche in years
57 posted on 07/23/2003 10:42:56 PM PDT by lainde
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To: JohnGalt
I'm glad to see that you acknowledge Goering as your intellectual forebear.
58 posted on 07/24/2003 5:03:47 AM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: nopardons
Another very clear article on this subject, I searched but did not find it posted. As a side note, it's amazing how some groups on the Right are indistinguishable from the Left in their opposition to the decisive actions on the "Muslim front".

 

http://www.toogoodreports.com/column/general/stover/20030722.htm
 

Was Iraq About WMD; Or Was
It About The Risks And "The Message"?

By
Allan C. Stover

 

War is not the answer, the protesters say? It depends on the question. What if the question had been: "How can we protect the American people given the violent world in which we live, where diplomacy and appeasement have failed to prevent attacks on Americans abroad and on America itself?"

 War was the answer because we were already in a de facto state of war. Weapons of mass destruction, oil, and freedom for the Iraqi people weren't the major reasons for taking out Iraq, although they played a part. America had two major reasons for going into Iraq.

 First was The Message: In a previous column, I wrote: "On September 6, 1970, Islamic terrorists hijacked Swissair, TWA, and Pan Am airliners and blew them up. The next day, they attacked a British airliner and destroyed it. That date, September 6, 1970, marked an Islamist declaration of war against Western nations. Sadly, we've been either too oblivious or too much in denial to realize that we've been in a state of war since then."

 Bill Clinton seemed oblivious to the ongoing state of war. He assumed that launching a few cruise missiles at some desert tents and an aspirin factory would persuade Islamists to call off their jihad against America. His miscalculations led to the slaughter on September 11, 2001.

 President Bush understands that we've been in a state of war that will continue until we annihilate or neutralize all Islamists, an unlikely possibility, at least in the short term. He can, however, neutralize those terrorists who are the most dangerous because they are the best financed. He can't stop renegade attacks by independent terrorist cells, but he can stop the terrorist groups that other nations support.

 That's why we needed The Message: "This is to remind you that America has taken out one nation, Afghanistan, because it was complicit in the attacks that killed 3,000 innocent Americans. We took out another nation, Iraq, because there was a risk that it was a threat to America. If you continue to support those who kill Americans, you will be next."

 The second reason for removing Iraq as a threat was the risks, specifically the risks of doing nothing in the face of the ongoing war. Successful entrepreneurs, military strategists, and others who deal with an uncertain future analyze risks and rewards to make the best decision given the options. The entrepreneur isn't sure whether his new business will fail within a year, but he has analyzed the risks and potential rewards, and calculated that the rewards of going forward outweigh the risks. Tommy Franks was never a hundred percent sure that our casualties would be as low as they were. He analyzed the risks and potential for victory and decided on the best strategy. He had no way of knowing whether the Republican Guard would launch a massive chemical attack or suck our fast-moving troops into a trap outside Baghdad, but he had to take risks to win.

 Since the smoke cleared on 9/11, President Bush has faced the most challenging decisions of any presidency in recent times. His first decision: What actions should he take to minimize Islamist attacks on America? That's when the risk of doing nothing became obvious.

 Suppose your neighbor is a known criminal who has had family members and friends murdered. Now he's threatening your family. Would you feel safe if a police detective told you, "There's only a small risk that he's crazy enough to have someone in your family killed like he did his"? Wouldn't you take some action?

 President Bush faced the risk that Saddam either directly or through an Islamist terror group would attack America again. How much of a risk should we be willing to accept before we take action? Should Bush have done nothing if the CIA told him there was a small risk that Saddam-a known criminal who has killed family members, friends, and underlings, and slaughtered his own people-would be crazy enough to load cargos of high explosives and chemical weapons on ships and explode them in U. S. harbors, killing tens of thousands and destroying the U. S. economy? Saddam had the ships and the weapons.

 President Bush had to assess the risks of invading and not invading Iraq. The Pentagon may have told him that combat deaths could be high, perhaps as many as a thousand. "If I do nothing," Bush could have replied, "there is a risk that we could lose tens or hundreds of thousands of Americans in the next attacks. I can't take that risk."

 He can't reveal that he invaded Iraq to send a message to other hostile governments (Iran, Syria, North Korea, and others) to call back their terrorist gangs, and block any others that might have a link back to them, or risk being the next target. He's hamstrung with international diplomacy constraints. Revealing the real message behind Operation Iraqi Freedom would dilute its effectiveness and provide ammunition to the leftist media and American-haters worldwide.

 Democrats have been grasping for an issue to undermine our president, and they think they've found one in sixteen words in his State of the Union speech. He stated that British intelligence had learned that Iraq was trying to purchase uranium in Africa. It was a true statement, but was the intelligence a hundred percent accurate? No, just as business and war carries risks and uncertainties, so does intelligence, but the Democrats and their leftist friends in the media are using the issue to undermine our efforts in Iraq. It's more important to them that Hillary or another leftist gets elected than that we prevail in Iraq.

 Americans must understand at least this: We can't wimp out in Iraq and withdraw before we've clearly sent The Message. Otherwise, the Islamist war on America will never end.

 

To comment on this article or express your opinion directly to the author, you are invited to e-mail Allan at acstover@comcast.net .

 RECENT COLUMNS: Archives are shown, going back nine months, from the date of this article. To see articles older than that, consult the archive listings accompanying earlier articles.

 
07/15/03: Will All Perversions Soon Become "Normal"?
07/08/03: The World Knows America Is Different, But Do They Know Why?
07/01/03: Will International Agreements Lead To America's Self-Destructing?

 

 

 

59 posted on 07/24/2003 5:47:29 AM PDT by Tolik
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To: nopardons
If you were unaware of the propoganda campaign generated to demonize the Germans of Kaiser Bill and the Japanese of Tojo, then I suggest you need to put down your government books.
60 posted on 07/24/2003 5:52:36 AM PDT by JohnGalt (They're All Lying)
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