Posted on 07/22/2003 7:21:19 AM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
You might want to check your internal consistency meter there. Or you might want to use some suitable crypto-speak that can't be confused for a hateful dogma. One of my favorites is "harmonize"; the UN uses that one a lot and it seems to pass muster.
Changing their religious dogma through force sounds alot like Pipes "fight them by becoming more like them." A more likely approach for cultural shifts is the Gramscian "long march through the institutions". If we could just find a way to export our media, teacher's unions, law schools, and the entire profession of psycholgy, we could turn them into us in a generation or two without a shot being fired. I bet if we offered them a nice Social Safety Net, we'd soon have 'em killing their babies and spying on their neighbors.
"My fellow Americans and to citizens of the world, in twenty minutes, the holy city of Mecca will be obliterated from the face of the Earth in response to yesterday's vicious, barbaric attack on our country. This action is to impart two lessons: first, if Islamic extremists wish to fight a holy war, they must expect casualties of a holy nature; second, a warning: if one American, one single American, ever again loses their life in a terrorist incident perpetrated by Islamic extremeists, remember this: compared to tonight, we will get rough."
However, I will say this: once that particular genie had been let out of the bottle, there would've been no stopping anyone else from using what they already have (which is why we got away with it in WWII). I believe if we had retaliated with nuclear weapons, by now India and Pakistan would've already lit each other up, and perhaps North Korea would've launched on Japan or us, to their destruction perhaps, but causing great loss on our side as well.
While I believe Islamic extremeists have yet to truly learn their lesson about messing with the US, I also believe the way we've gone about our revenge is probably the best way.
You claim that terrorists don't even have much capacity at waging asymetric war. This is patently false. As with ALL "guerilla warfare" , which after all this is, they have theupper hand. Why ? Becuase they ignore the rules, throw out acknowledged civilized practices, and strike in unconventional ways. That's how WE won the Revolutionary War; don't forget. Add to the mix ( which you are loath to do ), that Islam isn't just a religion ... unlike modern day Christianity, it is also a toe that binds dissimilar groups across the world.
You comingle " welfare " with war. You can't do that; it's not even apples& oranges. It's worse than disengenuousness. You're over reaching.
The Islamic world view is a fraud ? No, it isn't and you just keep proving how little you know or understand the topic. Pipes is an errudite, well versed, knowledgeable, unafarid to speak non PC views. You, OTOH, know far less than some on FR; let alone Daniel Pipes on this subject. Yet, you somehow imagine that you are " expert " enough to impun and heap calumny upon a man who is your better. Is it because you disagree with him ? A disagreement based on little or no relevant facts; you take the same side as Edward Said, CAIR, and others who have a visceral hatred for the West and America in particular.
Unlike you, who have now absorbed the new propaganda, I know about and understand world events, the " ARAB STREET ", and history.
Put down " ATLAS SHRUGGED ", see reality, and stop believing that fiction is reality and vice versa. :-)
That stuff doesn't do jack against a nuclear bomb. Get out of the parlor once in awhile.
the connection between the US's past and present practice of propping up corrupt and undemocratic regimes in the middle east (iran, iraq, saudi arabia) and our present problems with radical islam is so obvious that when someone does not see it, i have to assume that they *will* not see it.
if we continue to believe the happy lies about a "war between civilizations" and "islamists hate freedom and want take ours away" then we will only continue to throw more gasoline on the fire. the reality is a lot less complicated and abstract than all that. it's a turf battle pure and simple. they want us off their turf. like communism before it, radical islam is not the end in itself, but only the means to an end.
empire is not without its costs, and i don't want to be the generation stuck footing the bill.
Should we give civilian trials to Al Qaeda members?
there was once a time when we had enough confidence in the justness of our cause and the effectiveness of our democratic institutions to do just that.
sad to see that time pass, and to see 'patriots' cheering its departure.
Not necessarily "fascists". The U.S. Eighth Air Force and British Bomber Command weren't "fascists".
The West has just become more "civilized" since between 35,000 (Allied estimates) and 100,000 (German estimates) German civilians died in Dresden on 14-15 February 1945 after 722 British Halifax and Lancaster bombers and 527 American B-17 and B-24 bombers dropped 3900 tons of high explosive and incendiary bombs on that medieval picture post card city with very little strategic value.
Now, the U.S. fights wars where the American news media dutifully reports, as in a recent article, that a family of Iraqis was complaining bitterly that U.S. forces had damaged some of their furniture and knocked over some book cases while searching their house for Fedayeen fighters that had been mounting ambushes against American troops.
Unlike the American fighting man of 1945, the 2003 American fighting man is expected to wage war as a S.N.A.G. (Sensitive New Age Guy).
The answer is somewhere between Dresden warfare and S.N.A.G. warfare.
So did the ancient Greeks.
Unfortunately, even the most civilized nation can survive only as long as it is militarily able to defeat the armed invader and a well armed citizen militia is no match for the militarly technology, manpower and logistics that a centralized nation state can bring to bear.
The individual Greek city states did fine with their little citizen militia wars amongst themselves and only had to co-operate during extreme emergencies such as the Persian Wars.
Once that relatively uncivilized Romans showed up with the technolgy, manpower and logistics that only a centralized government can field, the independent Greek city state passed into the dust bin of history.
The age old problem is to be able to balance the power of a centralized military with the freedom of decentralized government for civil matters.
The failure to achieve this balance will reult in either a military dictatorship by your own Army (Rome after Caesar) or rule by the foreign Army that has just conquered you (Greece after the Romans Legions arrived).
The Roman Republic tried to address this issue by splitting military power between two Consuls and replacing the Consuls on a regular basis. This, however, led to disaterous military defeats during the Second Punic War as inexperienced Roman Consuls were routinely massacred by the military professional, Hannibal. The long command in the Spanish theater of operations that allowed Scipio Africanus to gain command experience finally allowed Rome to have a military commander with the experience and expertise to deal with Hannibal.
As Rome tried "reforms" to increase the efficiency of it's Army, control of the Army was lost and the Republic perished.
The historical marvel of America is that, so far, it has been able to achieve the delicate balancing act of a powerful centralized military and the freedom of it's citizenry.
If the balancing act does not succeed for future American generations, our progeny will be ruled by either by an American military dictatorship or by a foreign military dictatorship.
No. That is why they are so hapless, why they produce nothing themselves, why they fail all the time, why they can only destroy. Rules are what create and build things, and the solution is not to throw them away. Ruthlessness is not a source of power. (Who was more ruthless in Iraq, the US military or Saddam's men? Who was stronger?) That is the oldest evil superstition going and what blights the worse half of the world.
The problem in the article is that it can't seem to distinguish between justice and weakness, or forceful defense of it from ruthless disregard of it. Has everyone forgotten the morality of chivalry? (Which does not mean holding open doors - it means being gentle to the innocent and ferocious to the wicked). Is everyone now supposed to be a sweet little lamb or a ravening wolf, as though dogs did not exist?
We impose the rules. They exist because we will them to exist. We choose to establish justice. But justice is not meekness - justice bears a sword. Those who want only to enjoy property whether earned or not, we leave to enjoy property - we do not cease it from them and thus toss everyone back into the jungle. Those who want to seize that of others, or terrify to rule, or kill to avoid living with others - we conquer.
It is not complicated. It is not enough to veer in a direction, toward pacifism or toward ruthlessness. We need to be muscular and fair. Why is this hard to understand? Is it something about temper, or having been taught too long a different idea of justice, or useful idiots blowing smoke (to excuse ruthlessness in others, or to seduce us to it ourselves)?
Every properly brought up child used to know these things. It is crazy that supposedly learned pundits still so completely miss so simple a point.
Of course not. I appreciate Bush's aggressive approach on terrorists and suspects, and it has paid dividends.
I don't think my neighbor with a shotgun in the back of his truck, or greater states' rights do much to prevent an Islamic whackjob from planting a weapon somewhere. Believe me, I don't oppose the concepts you mention, but I don't find them particularly useful for near-term domestic defense.
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