The Werewolf Principle [Post-war Germany Hitler regime 'deadenders']

From a review of "Werewolf! The History of the National Socialist Guerrilla Movement, 1944-1946" + ^ | July 20, 2003 + | Various

[Chi-townChief]

Good read.

[Teacher317]

I always love learning more about WWII

[Austin Willard Wright]

I keep hearing people make this comparison. I'll bet any of them dollars to donuts that these Wolverine, etc. potshots were on a minor scale compared to the current bloodletting of Americans in Iraq.

I have a very simple question which can prove this case one way or the other: how many American troops were killed by post-war guerrilla action in Germany? As long as that question remains unanswered, this comparison will properly be dismissed as fallacious.

BTW, please do give me the "do you our research" runaround routine. I have. I called the Center for Military History (the chief federal military history agency) in Washington and they think this comparison is bogus.

[BOBTHENAILER]

Thanks a million for this post. Will use it in a Letter to the Editor I feel compelled to write.

[hchutch]

Interesting info here.

[Steve_Seattle]

One of the quoted articles claims that the German "Werewolves" " . . . took the lives of many Allied and Soviet soldiers and officers." Unless this claim is false, I don't see why you discount the comparison with Iraq.

[Austin Willard Wright]

"Many" may have died before the end of the war, but then that does not address the point. How many "many" died after the German surrender? I would think that the folks who love to make the comparison would at least be mildly interested in answering this question

[Consort]

Third Reich Factbook (apolitical)

[Steve_Seattle]

"Many" suggests more than just a few, and the articles are clearly talking about activity that was going on after the war was officially over. So I would interpret "many" to mean dozens, at least.

[Austin Willard Wright]

Where does it say "many" died in the postwar period? Aren't you at least mildly interested in verifying what "many" means?

[thegreatbeast]

Well, Mr. Wright, if you read the post, you saw this, "...an explosion in the Bremen police headquarters, also in June 1945, killed five Americans and thirty-nine Germans."
That was just one instance. The fact is that the 'wrapping up' is just beginning in Iraq. Why don't we wait awhile before trying to characterize or judge its success?

[Ragtime Cowgirl]

You're a war historian and you think our post-major ops casualties have been high? We have ~ 150,000 troops across Iraq - a nation the size of Germany - w/ ~ 24 million newly Freed Iraqis. During the last two weeks in June, as our troops were completing the third of three major aggressive operations to root out loyalists, the press became increasingly shrill. By the month's end an ignorant media watcher may have believed our troops were helpless, victims of the Big Bad enemy - dupes of the government, instead of the warriors they are. The last two weeks in June we had 13 fatalities - 7 hostile. One porch accident in Chicago the same period claimed more US casualties. Our guys took out - in Operation Scorpion alone - over $9 million bad guy funds, mountain of bad guy weapons and detained over 1000 bad guys - bad guys with intel.

This week has been a high-casualty week. The Hussein boys co-rats. We lost 13 troops in one week..as usual by cowardly means...ieds and RPG hits on convoys, and tossing a grenade at troops guarding a children's hospital. The leftovers started hitting civilian targets with greater frequency in the last few weeks - because they are very familiar with our military. You should check the CENTCOM security logs. Our troops take out far more bad guys - with the help of the Iraqi people - daily.

Some reporters mistakenly claim the war was declared over when the President declared major operations over. They know better. The eight objectives were clearly spelled out at the beginning of the war and the troops have accomplished most of them in just 4 months and 10 days. Awesome.

Of course the two wars were very different. The losers who refuse to denounce their loyalties to the monsters they served - whether Ba'athist Socialist or National Socialists - share the same future - no place in the land they once ruled. They are both isolated and defeated, desperate individuals - stripped of command and control, funds and future. They will fight to the death....'to the death' being the key.

*ONE DAY IN IRAQ

*What Our Troops Did to the Bad Guys

[Austin Willard Wright]

I agree that some Americans died in Germany (and I have said so in posts until I am blue in the face) but asked for *some* evidence that the death rate was the scale of the current bloodletting of Americans. My basic question was simple: how many Americans [that's total!] died in postwar guerrilla action in Germany?

BTW, five Americans died in Iraq in one twenty-four hour period this week and many more have died besides that. If folks want to make a comparison, they have an obligation to back it up with evidence.

[Austin Willard Wright]

I am not war historian but the folks at the Center for Military History (the chief federal agency on military history) are and they think your comparison between Germany and Iraq is nonsense. Call them sometime.

[Mr. Silverback]

One of the quoted articles claims that the German "Werewolves" " . . . took the lives of many Allied and Soviet soldiers and officers." Unless this claim is false, I don't see why you discount the comparison with Iraq.

Why? Because he's been against the war since the subject came up, and there will never be enough mass graves or defunct terror training camps and torture chambers to convince him to pull his head out and realize we did a good thing. For some people, hunting down terrorist scum is still not a legitimate national security aim.

[Mr. Silverback]

"Many" may have died before the end of the war, but then that does not address the point. How many "many" died after the German surrender? I would think that the folks who love to make the comparison would at least be mildly interested in answering this question

Here's a thought, try doing some math. From the article:

Buildings housing Allied and Soviet staffs were favourite targets for Werewolf bombings; an explosion in the Bremen police headquarters, also in June 1945, killed five Americans and thirty-nine Germans.

Fourty-four folks is a lot of folks, almost as many as we've lost since 1 May in Iraq. That was in one Werewolf attack. You're right, the comparison may not be valid; seems Hussein's deadenders are pretty ineffective compared to Goebbel's dipsticks.

[Calpernia]

ok...is it just me? Or are all these interesting tidbits coming out at late hours recently?

[Austin Willard Wright]

Math? Boy...folks are getting desperate to prove this analogy. Five Americans died in the raid! BTW, since yo are sexing up the numbers by including non-Americans you should also include the many Iraqi police who have died since May 1. BTW, my standard is strict. I only include Americans who are, after all, my main concern.

[Ragtime Cowgirl]

Did you read my post? I'm not comparing post-war Germany to NON-post war Iraq (we are still at war).

In post-war Germany, the world understood that Hitler was the bad guy. The press informed the people. The UN did not yet exist - nor did 700,000 NGOS - mostly un-American, most working toward global socialism in concert with the UN - unelected and unaccountable - along with 'allied' nations and US elected leaders and former Presidents deliberately working to weaken America on the world stage. The press knew the difference between right and wrong. Both major US political parties were working towards the same basic goal.

I simply stated the obvious - the tactics of losers today and then are very similar, and both groups have no future in the country they once ruled.