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To: SauronOfMordor
The [Strykers] are not a replacement for the M1 Abrams tank or the M3 Bradley Infantry Fighting Vehicle. The IAVs will be used in places, such as urban areas, where the heavy armored vehicles are not suitable for the mission.

True. But I object to the concept that heavy armored vehicles are not suitable for urban areas. In direct support of infantry units, tanks are very appropriate for urban areas. I don't think we've lost a single tanker to hostile fire since major combat operations ended, save perhaps that one tank where the crew failed to follow SOP and were driving across a bridge with the driver unbuttoned. Driver got shot, tank went into the water, rest of crew drowned. SOP says driver is never unbuttoned. Gee, I wonder why.

But imagine Mogadishu if we had dispatched a Mech Infantry task force with 2 Mech platoons and 1 tank platoon the moment that first Blackhawk went down. If I recall correctly, with the distances involved the heavy guys could have been there within 2 hours. Now imagine Somali reaction to an M-1 engaging them with direct, short range, main gun fire and Bradleys firing lots of HE 25mm instead of having nothing but our guys firing small arms at them. I don't think we would have lost 18 guys. And the Somalis would have lost either a lot more or a lot less than the 500-1000 they did - less if they reacted in the typical fashion when tanks show up spitting smoke and fire and death ("shock effect") and ran like hell, more if they obligingly hunkered down and tried to shoot at tanks with their small arms and RPGs.

And one other point - when I asked about the ultimate destination of the 6 Stryker brigades, Thunder 6 told us:

6 Brigades: Two currently at Ft. Lewis (one before too much longer), one in Alaska, one in Hawaii, one at Ft. Polk, and one in Pennsylvania. The ones in Alaska and Louisiana are separate BDE's. The other two belong to existing Divisions, one light, one mech.

Note that last division is a Mech division. I seriously doubt we're going to augment that division with a fourth brigade. So one brigade is going to turn in its M-1s and M-3s and transition to Strykers. That sounds like replacing M-1s and M-3s with Strykers. Iraq proved (again) that we need our heavy forces. I hope they're at least smart enough to choose the "light" brigade! Since we're deploying forces everywhere, my opinion is that we shouldn't replace any M-1s or M-3s with Strykers, but bring Fort Carson back up to full divisional strength and increase the number of maneuver battalions in the Army. And, again, I feel strongly the Stryker is a mistake when juxtaposed with the many other choices

For those who don't know, in a Mechanized Infantry division the "light" brigade is the one that has two Mech battalions and one Tank battalion. One brigade has two Tank and one Mech battalions, while the remaining brigade has four battalions, two of each. The only difference in an Armored division is it doesn't have a light brigade - both of the brigade with three battalions have two Tank battalions and one Mech.

Of course, my knowledge of division compositions could be out of date.

64 posted on 08/06/2003 4:40:37 AM PDT by Conservative84 (To close with and destroy the enemy through fire, maneuver, and shock effect.)
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To: Conservative84
Con84:
One of the great things about this forum are the intelligent and committed folks who care enough to debate these issues.
The six locations are telling, for a number of reasons (I won't delve into the political side of it, but it is there):
The first two at Ft. Lewis: The force structure was already there (an armor and light BDE, both separated from their parent divisions by the Pacific Ocean) both supposedly able to deploy from Lewis anywhere in the world (which is true, the deployment facilities there are amazing...ports of Tacoma and Seattle, McChord AFB, and Boeing Field in Seattle), the environmental work was mostly done, etc...now one of them will likely not stay at Lewis (going to USAREUR, maybe Grafenwoer). One of these is headed to Iraq, followed by the second going somewhere as soon as it is certfied.
Alaska was/is a separate Light BDE, that has a PACOM mission (and Ted Stevens). Hawaii is a divisional light BDE (another BDE out of the 25th ID with a PACOM mission (and Daniel Inoye)and great deployment facilities...they are fixing to have huge problems there in Hi with the Environmental piece of fielding the SBCT (there are reasons why the forces in Hi have always been light!).
Ft. Polk's unit is the 2 ACR (L) which is the IVIII ABC Cav Regt, and is going to look different from the other SBCT's because there are different missions they will have to do for the Corps. However, they are currently in Iraq, and aren't due home for a year. This one makes sense, since it will pave the way for what the Cav Regt of the future will look/act like.
BDE number is going to the Pennsylvania National Guard, which also makes sense, because the ARNG has to covert to the future too, or it will end up marching in VFW parades and little else. The lion share of the soldiers who will make up that BDE are currently in Kosovo, or just got back from Bosnia, so the training part of the conversion should be easier.
All of these BDE's can operate independently, or as part of a Division, Corps, or Joint Force. SInce it appears the army is moving to BDE "like" structure as it's primary manuever forces, these BDE's will plug right into what is currently working in the field. Challenge is going to be lashing up a digital HQ (which all the SBCT's are) with analog Division or Corps HQ's. Only a couple of Divisions are digitized currently (4ID in Iraq, and 1st Cav at Hood), and only one Corps HQ (III Corps). There are workarounds being used (with V Corps in Iraq). There is much speculation that the later SBCT's may look significantly different that the first. Lessons learned, new equipment, technology advances, and even budget restraints will certainly affect the program.
regards,


70 posted on 08/06/2003 4:26:25 PM PDT by Thunder 6
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To: Conservative84
For those who don't know, in a Mechanized Infantry division the "light" brigade is the one that has two Mech battalions and one Tank battalion. One brigade has two Tank and one Mech battalions, while the remaining brigade has four battalions, two of each. The only difference in an Armored division is it doesn't have a light brigade - both of the brigade with three battalions have two Tank battalions and one Mech. Of course, my knowledge of division compositions could be out of date.

A little out of date, but pretty good. Here's the latest: All divisions are going/have gone to 9 battalions. 1st Armor Division & 1st Cavalry are 5 tank battalions & 4 Bradley battalions (2 tank-heavy brigades & 1 Bradley-heavy brigade); the 1st Infantry Divison, 3ID, & 4ID are 4 tank Battalions & 5 Bradley battalions. The 2d Infantry Division is odd-ball: a heavy brigade in Korea, an air assault infantry brigade in Korea, and the Stryker Brigade at Fort Lewis.

The 25th Infantry Division has 6 light infantry battalions in 2 brigades in Hawaii & one Stryker Brigade getting organized and trained up at Fort Lewis.

78 posted on 08/06/2003 5:04:54 PM PDT by mark502inf
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To: Conservative84
What I haven't seen discussed yet so far on this thread is what this Stryker vehicle is going to do to the attitude and mind-set of the people who have to go to war in it.

Several varieties of Infantry soldier exist in the US Army today:

Rangers

Parachute Infantry (82nd Airborne Div; 173rd ABN BDE

Airmobile Infantry (101st Airborne Div [Air Assault])

Mountain Infantry (10th Mountain Div)

Light Infantry (172nd Separate Infantry Brigade)

Mechanized Infantry (3ID, 4ID, 1AD)

With the introduction of the Stryker we have re-introduced to the US Army yet another variety of Infantry soldier, Motorized Infantry. What the various type of Infantrymen call themselves is important, because it explains how they see themselves, and their role.

Is the Motorized Infantryman a Stryker crewman, or a passenger? Is the Stryker a new Infantry Fighting Vehicle or a battle taxi? Are those guys going to live in that pig and dismount only when forced to or are they just going to ride in it until they get wherever they are going and go break things and kill people afoot?

87 posted on 08/06/2003 6:45:32 PM PDT by Cannoneer No. 4 ("Fahr na HO!")
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