It's Unstoppable: High Tech Jobs Ditching US

Associated Press/ The Straits Times ^ | 08-03-03

[templar]

As I expected. Lots of accusations and assertions. No facts.


Bye

[GatekeeperBookman]

You are a curious fellow-defending the indefensible. The teamsters 'leader' was so special he had his very own FBI man-for many years. I listened to what the FBI said & knew he was correct. They DO constitute a special kind of criminal. The Federal Gov took them apart & ran them for some time. Unions have run amok-they have become a very BAD & failed sort of institution. They are actually dying. I have heard their own members describe their state of rot & decay. Most employees run from their attempts to organize.

Hard to face, aint it? You are the guy with empty remarks.

[templar]

You are a curious fellow-defending the indefensible.

I'm defending nothing. Labor Unions are a fact of life in the civilized world. Live with it.

Quit avoiding the subject here, I asked you to defend the assertion that " Labor unions are structured to produce thugs. " The implications of this should be evident to anyone that knows the meaning of the words in the English language: That Labor unions are openly and overtly organized in a manner that is intended to train criminals who engage in criminal activity. Look up the definition of structured and thug in the dictioary (assuming that you know how to use one). I challenged you to defend your statement with any factual eviudence an you seem to want to concerntrate on an individuals actions that was/is a member of the Teamsters instead without in any manner showing that the Union was deliberately organized to cause these actions. FYI, there are thousands of Labor Unions and individual locals in the US and none of them are "structured to produce thugs" anymore than corporations in america are structured to produce criminal stock and taX frauds (I.E. Enron, Quest,Worldcom, etc.) .

Hard to face, aint it? You are the guy with empty remarks.

I will agree with your assesment of myself as soon as you provide a copy (posted here) of any single (that is only one out of thousands) Unions bylaws or official organizational structure that in any manner mandates the training, hiring, or enabling of anyone to directly engage in, or for the purpose of engaging in, illegal "thug" activities. Otherwise you are really sounding pretty idiotic to me: someone with empty prejudices and mindless positions that condems thousands of organizations and millions of American workers without the slightest bit of factual evidence.

So, prove your original point that " Labor unions are structured to produce thugs.", or shut up.

[GatekeeperBookman]

Face it, unions have become a dead issue. We may not have to endure them much longer.

They do in fact, prove my points with many disputes. They take it to the streets whenever they can't extract the share they demand. That is thugery-mob violence. Their contribution is intimidation. Entirely unproductive.

You do sound like you are defending this. Prove they are otherwise. "Labor unions are openly and overtly organized in a manner that is intended to train criminals who engage in criminal activity." Whjat was the story about the Teamsters? Did they simply misplace money? Did they accidently employ a vast network of thugs to strong-arm thousands for money? Was Jimmy Hoffa just an invention of industry propagandists? Prove what ever yopu wish-maybe you could get Jimmy Hoffa resurrected & make him dance on the head of a pin. I doubt it. They used a hot-dip gavanizing facility in Toledo for most eliminations-nothing left beyond some hot gases. Or maybe you are HIM!! Prove you are not!

[GatekeeperBookman]

"(assuming that you know how to use one). " You know, insult is not required. Its very simple. You think unions are a fine thing & I know them to be an evil institution. There is really no need to attempt to insult me-which you did several times. I just think people should not be intimidated by thugs. Maybe you do.

[templar]

You have stated "Labor unions are structured to produce thugs.". So ... Again! ... prove it or shut up.

BTW, this it the same reply you will get from me untill you have addressed this by either proving or withdrawing your statement. I get really tired of people that want to use their own unsubstantiated statements as if they were facts when they are nothing but personal opinion. As the saying goes "put up or shut up".

[MatthewViti]

what is amazing is that the Dems have been running against the war, which has 66% support

any info to back that up?

Bush could stop this in one week if he wanted to

he doesn't want to!

[MatthewViti]

What is going to happen to this country shortly? Jobs are being lost, people are spening way beyond their means. Just look at the number of BKs being filed, credit cards being run up, 125% LTV loans, etc . In my opinion, something has to give as it can't keep going on like this.

[stig]

I've said this on another thread, Bush could stop this in one week if he wanted to. End H1B and L1 visas by executive order, and give one speech saying that he is looking into changes in tax policy to encourage US employment and discourage offshoring.

My thoughts as well however Bush should call and emergency executive order. And then toss the ball to congress by giving them a deadline. It's ultimately up to congress to fix this. Bush should trickle suggested legislation each time the dems run interference. Then he breezes into re-election saying the dems would rather play partisan politics rather than fix the economy and protect the USA.

[Euro-American Scum]

Most Americans are politically naive, they don't understand the true motives of the Democratic party, and this issue is more then enough to toss alot (a whole lot) of votes their way.

It would seem this is so. Except no one on the left is talking about this. And it's easy to figure out why. The Dems are also in the pockets of corporate mega $, just like the Pubbies. They have no vested interest in stopping this. None at all.

The Dems have no issue in '04. They have nothing on defense. They speak vaguely about the sluggish economy, but they don't hammer the offshoring issue specifically. Not Dean. Not Gebhardt. Not Libermann. Not even Hillary.

They don't care anymore than the Republicans and I doubt this will be an issue for them in '08 unless the "cooked" unemployment numbers we're getting now get into double digits. The out-of-work numbers will have to reach Depression-like levels before they get any traction out of this.

And don't believe for a minute that the Dems will do anything but talk about it.

[RLK]

What is going to happen to this country shortly?

-----------------------

If this screwing around continues it will push people into armed revolt and revolution for their survival.

[GatekeeperBookman]

"shut up." Rude words.

That is the second time you have said that. You sound entirely like a lawyer-by the structure & language of your earlier comments.

You also sound as if you support thugs who employ force to achieve economic power. Your ugly remark implies, for me at least, that you would employ force to win your argument.

You must have personal problems.

I am so glad that others may see your behavior. I am sorry you are soo unhappy.

It is unfortunate that you are so very tired of people who actually believe what they see. You can't change everyone. If you are tired of people-too bad. As you have said several times, "Live with it."

BTW, Unions breed thugs. The game is up-they are dying. They no longer strangle our railroads, our factories and communications. Sure, some still exist & negotiations are protracted, but their power is vastly reduced. Even their own members have been shamed by the awful tactics of the last century. Who knows, they may begin to assume a proper role-partners in production & profit, instead of surly thugs. Maybe the China thing has a benfit.

[GatekeeperBookman]

Lots of factions in this problem. Many have created the problem. We seldom name them. Hard to depict every facet & every aspect to this problem-jobs out, illegals in ( to America ). Marine Inspector shows the source of the illegals. The following list is a good starting point-not entirely correct or complete-is from
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/829929/posts

Who is the Cheap Labor Lobby?
FrontPageMagazine.com ^ | January 24, 2003 | Ellen Almer


Posted on 01/26/2003 9:31 AM PST by Bernard Marx

Some of cheap labor’s biggest lobbyists:

1. The high-tech industry. Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates, the pre-eminent figure in the high tech industry, is a passionate and vociferous supporter of cheap labor, primarily because overseas-trained engineers from India, China and Pakistan are cheaper than American tech workers.

2. The meat packing industry, especially pig and chicken slaughtering. This industry, of course, has a long and storied past of using cheap immigrant labor. Read Upton Sinclair’s novel The Jungle from 100 years ago.

3. Clothing manufacturers. Despite the efforts of the Ladies Garment Workers Union to eliminate sweat shops some 60 years ago, they are still alive and thriving in the states, employing mostly Asian women who work in terrible conditions.

4. Unions. These supposed advocates of the American worker and longtime opponents of importing immigrant labor are now part of the cheap labor lobby because they primarily serve the interests of union bosses, not workers. Bosses want more poor workers so they can have more members. They don’t want to see their members graduate to the middle class, where people generally don’t feel the need to belong to a union.

5. The hotel and restaurant industry. Another big business interest whose employees are primarily cheap labor from Latin America.

6. The ultra-wealthy – both liberals and nominal conservatives. They believe that only foreign workers are willing to work as their nannies, landscapers, and housekeepers. 7. The U.S. Chamber of Commerce, led by Grover Norquist, formerly a vocal spokesman for many conservative issues. This group has led the charge in convincing Congress to expand the awful H-1B visa program. They argue that more H-1B visas granted to foreign workers will alleviate a mythical shortage of skilled technology workers. The H-1B visa program allots 115,000 foreign worker visas annually, but the Chamber of Commerce said that isn’t nearly enough.

8. The governors of certain rural, Midwestern states (such as Iowa) whose populations are shrinking, prompting a cry for an influx of new residents. Of course, these governors do not consider attracting native Americans by offering a growing economy a better solution.

Cheap labor is not real capitalism, it is corporatism, for cheap labor is subsidized by the government, which ends up paying the health and welfare costs of these workers. All taxpayers bear the cost.

[templar]

As far as I am concerned, you have classified yourself as a wildly irrational lunatic by posting all sorts of unsupported statements including personal suppositions about myself that are impossible for you to have any basis to make. If you ever want to convince anyone of your view points, or even have them considered seriously, I would suggest that you use a bit of reasoning and have some supporting facts behind your statements. Otherwise, you will only get agreement from others in your current state of mind, which is generally worthless in any discussion.

Please don't respond to my posts in the future.

Thanks

Templar

[GatekeeperBookman]

That is a lot more polite than your repeated use of the instruction to "shut up." Such Rude words deserve to be answered. You have been answered in a very polite manner.

"Please don't respond to my posts in the future." Sounds like a plan I had already conceived! I hope you may also, please, follow your own advice.