What's Really Behind the Episcopal Controversy (Vanity)

August 6, 2003 | Miss Marple

[AppyPappy]

The Homosexual Lifespan paper, Eastern Psychological Association, 1993. I believe it was presented at their convention of that year.

Sexual preference is not listed in any death statistics so I doubt they had the information necessary to reach that conclusion. One independent researcher gave the same data by reading obits and guessing who was gay and who wasn't based on the text of the obit.

[BooBoo1000]

HI Ms Marple, good to hear from you, and I must say I agree with your post. I would not be suprised that some place on this earth, there is an old gray haired guy, building a big boat, and getting ready for a big rain..

[BooBoo1000]

HI Ms Marple, good to hear from you, and I must say I agree with your post. I would not be suprised that some place on this earth, there is an old gray haired guy, building a big boat, and getting ready for a big rain..

[TexanToTheCore]

I don't know much about the BGCT, but from what I have heard they are migrating off to the left. Do you know any more about them?

[BlackElk]

We certainly agree that one need not be Catholic to be Christian. Jesus Christ wept in the garden the night before His death over the fact that His flock would not be one flock, which seems necessarily to mean that his flock will be found in numerous religious homes. We may spar as brothers in Christ over this dogma or that in sincerity and good faith.

There are a tiny handful of people who think themselves Catholic who misinterpret Scripture (outside the church there is no salvation or extra ecclesia nulla salus in Latin) to believe that salvation is available only through the Roman Catholic Church. The particular instigator of that mistaken notion was a Boston Jesuit priest named Leonard Feeney whose heyday was in the 1950s. He was silenced and, I believe, excommunicated but repented before his death and returned to the Roman Catholic Church. The irony, of course, was that he placed himself outside the Roman Catholic Church by insisting that only Catholics could be saved. Though Feeney repented, there are still residual followers and some of the schismatic followers of the late "Traditionalist" Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre also seem to subscribe to that Feeneyite error.

I am not going to address the objections you raise as to "blind obedience" not because I do not respect your sincerity but because we will probably never come to meaningful agreement on it. That there are different denominations of Christians, as recognized by Jesus Christ in the garden, almost necessarily assumes disagreements among them. Let us agree to disagree with respect for one another. We will win no secular issues without each other. As Christians, we will likely win no religious contests as Christians in the greater society without co-operation which does not require us to agree on everything.

We do not believe that mere ordination protects any priest from error but the assumption of the office of the papacy provides a protection of the Holy Spirit that the pope will not preach dogmatic error (on matters of faith and morals) as truth when speaking ex cathedra as pope.

Such pronouncements of extraordinary infallibility have occurred exactly three times: The infallibility of Councils acting with the approval of the pope (Pope Pius IX, 1850s and seems to be little other than a reaffirmation of papal extraordinary infallibility when you brush the foam off the beer); the doctrine that Mary was conceived, alone of all our race (other than the human nature of Jesus Christ) without original sin (Pius IX, circa, 1854) and that, at her death or dormition, Mary was assumed into heaven, body and soul (Pius XII, 1954).

There is an ordinary infallibility which attaches to papal statements of a less formal nature by popes. This is also an exercise of the power of the keys mentioned in the Peter passage in Matthew. The Teaching Magisterium includes all these plus such scholarly works as may be included. Better informed Catholics than I can provide more precise details but much of Summa Theologica by St. Thomas Aquinas would seem to qualify along with many of the works of early Church Fathers such as St. Cyprian or pronouncements of doctrinal councils.

By "Christ's Teachings", I assume you mean the specific words of Jesus Christ in Scripture and certainly Catholic beliefs go beyond those words of Jesus Christ but the Catholic belief is that the purpose of the power of the keys given to Peter and passed to each of his successors is to address new situations with old principles.

We may well disagree on such beliefs but, for example, Jesus Christ, to the best of my knowledge, was silent on the matter of abortion as such. Popes have applied the commandment: Thou Shalt not Kill to prohibit abortion. This is not innovation. Like some Reformed Christians, we also look to the passages in Jeremiah in which Jews offered their first-born infants to be burned in the idol of Moloch in the Valley of Hinman while otherwise seeming to be pious and observant. Jeremiah warned that the blood of the innocent cries from the ground to heaven for vengeance. The result of the situation was the Babylonian captivity of the Jewish people and the sacking and destruction of the Temple.

As to war or peace, I always strive to respond in the fashion of the post to which I respond and it is entirely obvious that your post was an invitation to peace which is certainly accepted. To explain my seemingly schizophrenic internet personality: I do sometimes attack Reformed Christians IF and only IF they attack the Catholic Church as such or the pope or the teachings of the Church (not merely disagree with but attack). ANYONE posting with respect will receive the same respect from me. If it sometimes seems that I am making a small career of attacking a particular poster, that would be the reason. I think I may have attacked you in the past. I shall assume that our current exchange is more reflective of our respective realities than anything that may have gone before and I apologize for any slight or attack which may have been unjust. Whenever we are on the same side, I hope you will delight in the alliance.

Again, God bless you and yours!

[Guenevere]

#169...Bingo!

The point is many of the mainline churches like the Epicopal, etc. can be compared to the pot of boiling water & the frog.

Put the frog in tepid water, and it will sit there & slowly boil to death as the heat is gradually turned up.

None of this is a surprise, as you say.

And you're right...he agenda has been there for years...

...but folks kept compromising, delaying action....hoping it would pass over....

..and meanwhile, these 'ideas' were simply 'heated' up bit by bit.

One could almost compare it with the Holocaust.

Many Jews, in the early days, saw the handwriting on the wall, and left for safer places.

Others kept thinking it either wouldn't happen....or when it did, they adjusted themselves and their lives to each added indignity....

..and then it was too late.

Wake up folks!
You can still make a choice!

[irish guard]

I understand completely....but I do think Hollywood is a bit different. At least I see it that way....I think the Jewish influence in Hollywood is there and is not completely the strawman you think it is. Perhaps I overstate it, but you are dead on spot on the liberalism part and that is and should have been my primary point. Instead, I threw in something off topic as I mused about abortion......and lumped other things together.

[AppyPappy]

I think the Jewish influence in Hollywood is there and is not completely the strawman you think it is.

Hmmm...let me guess. They don't show pork chops...and shrimp is never mentioned....and glasses always break at weddings.....and every ill is cured by chicken soup.

I'm dying to know what is "Jewish" about the dreck coming from Hollywood. All I see is liberal trash.

[BeAllYouCanBe]

"One could almost compare it with the Holocaust."

True that many Jews helped the Nazis to kill their own people. Episcopalians seem to be so open minded that they are incapable of calling anyone or anything evil.

When we left the Episcopal Church no person ever called to see why we stopped coming to church -- but new Gays were openly invited in -- old white guys are expendable. The new left-winged power structure didn't want to know where we went. The "final solution" to the white bible believing wierdos.

[Redleg Duke]

You are an informed and respectful debating opponent and while I agree to disagree, I also respect you.

I suspect and pray that we may meet some day in the hereafter and both gaze in wonderment and surprise at the celestial reality that is revealed to us. And I suspect, we will laugh at the mortal illusions that we both lived under.

I firmly believe that God not only has infinite wisdom, but also a sense of humor. Peace be upon you also, My Brother.

[Marysecretary]

You're right. It IS the love of money. God is generous and he blesses you when you live by his principle of tithing. Many people who are Christians are rich and give generously. He blesses us when we give. He wants us to prosper as our soul prospers. I take that to mean financially as well. He has met every need I've had. We aren't rich but we live by that tithing principle and it's a blessing.

[Zack Nguyen]

Believe me, I know more about the BGCT than I ever cared to know. My church wrestled with the whole denomination business, and in my view made the wrong decision. My family is now trying to find another fellowship.

Click here:

http://www.baptist2baptist.org

Click on "Reports, Articles, and Papers", and scroll almost down to the bottom. The report on Denominational Relationships by Prestonwood Baptist is extremely enlightening. There are many other articles there as well that will be useful in your research.

In addition to funding the hard left Baptist Joint Committee on Public Affairs, the BGCT also gives several hundred thousand dollars per year to the Christian Life Commission which, in my view, is pro-choice.

The Christian Life Commission claims to be pro-life, but has five exceptions to their "pro-life" stand. They are:

* life of the mother
* rape
* incest
*fetal abnormality (if the baby has a genetic deformity that will likely keep him/her from living outside the womb, feel free to kill him/her.)
* the mental or emotional health of the mother (perhaps the most offensive one - if the mother may be suicidal or a psychologist claims she is, go ahead and kill the baby. Exactly who defines mental and emotional illness, is a mystery to us all but apparently not to the CLC.)

The CLC will claim that this position is held by Billy Graham, but I have no proof of that and frankly wouldn't care if they did. Right is right and wrong is wrong no matter who says it, and this issue is life and death.

[metesky]

Priestess.

Don't let them win the war of words.

[Marysecretary]

National Council of Churches is a Methodist 'mission.' They send money to them. That's why I wouldn't tithe but gave to local missions and bills instead. The NCC is a socialist organization that helped Nelson Mandela in Africa. They have all kinds of crazy missions that I would never support. I'm outta there! Too bad. I liked my little church and its people but there was no spiritual food left. I was starving.

[Marysecretary]

This country and its churches are on a slippery slope. When you allow gay programs on television and normalize that lifestyle, when SCOTUS says it's okay to have homo sex, when we allow gay bishops to be ordained...what's next? We don't go higher, we just sink lower and lower.

[judicial meanz]

I was Episcopalian. Just last year, when Archbishop Griswold shot off his big mouth about war in Iraq, I sent him a scorching letter and told him to remove me from the membership registry. I havent looked back since.

I loved my little Church, but I havent been back to it either. It wasnt overwhelmingly beautiful ( built in the 1600's, so it couldnt be) but the sense of history in it resopunded.

I think your observations are spot-on. Its about infiltration, power, influence, and money. Most church leaders are more interested in politics than their faith, imho. Liberal politics.

This isnt the first time this happened. Remember the stories of the CPUSA infiltrating black churches to break their historic hold on people in the 1930's? This is another example. I look for more maintream denminations to be corrupted and their finances to be coopted towards the left.

Thats why this lifelong Episcopalian is now churchless. I wont be part of blasphemy, no matter how subtle.

[jtill]

"The Episcopal church has reached a turning point where it is openly condoning and welcoming unrepentant sinners as teachers and pastors of their congregations."

I have seen this very thing happen in the Episcopal church I have belonged to since 1950. And, when it did happen, there was a huge falling away of membership. What was once a church with 650 communicants, is now a church with 150. Sad lesson, but it was learned!

[secret garden]

Interesting idea here.

[BlackElk]

Does your screenname derive from a fellow who used to live in Waterbury, Connecticut and was no fan of Consolidated Edison in New York? Just a shot in the dark.

[BlackElk]

I don't know what is next but if you have a pet dog, keep a close eye on him or her lest some new caucus of the Demonratic Party cast a lustful eye or worse in his or her direction.