I have a question, and I'd really like an answer

Vanity | 08/06/03 | Zionist Conspirator

[Zionist Conspirator]

I thank you all for your responses. However, some of you are simply telling me that "nazism is on the left" (because it is "national socialism," as everyone knows) and some of you are just telling me about the importance of freedom.

I would simply like honest, thought-out suggestions as to what it is that unites American "palaeolibertarians" with Old World Rightism. Old World Rightism has no problems with statism and does not worship "liberty," yet it seems to serve as the foreign flagship for American "palaeolibertarians." What is he connection? Why does it exist?

Unfortunately, I disagree that national socialism is leftwing simply because it is a form of socialism. No one considers Francisco Franco to be a leftist, yet the official ideology of his regime was national syndicalism (syndicalism being a form of militant socialism). If national socialism is leftist, does that mean that Franco was leftist because he advocated national syndicalism?

I have been around long enough (and was in the palaeoright JBS long enough) to learn that in America national socialism always came from the right, such as The American M*rc*ry, or the neo-Nazi National Youth Alliance which started as Youth for [George] Wallace in 1968. Why would neo-nazis rally around a man whose entire career was based on opposing government centralism?

My questions still stand if anyone else has any ideas.

[Zionist Conspirator]

You're one f**ked up, confused dude.

I am sorry that my asking honest questions about a real situation (that exists whether or not you choose to acknowledge it) so troubled you that you felt the need to curse.

[Salman]

I gave the short version.

[Mr.Atos]

Now c'mon! Regardless of any ancillary motives, he has a point. This argument is forwarded by the Left all of the time. There was a collegiate report that emerged just last week (from Berkeley I believe) that made comparisons of George Bush to Stalin and Hitler both. I have been in this argument myself any number of times with short-sighted, dim-witted leftists who try to equate national socialism (aka. NAZI) with judeo-christain constitutional fundamentalism (American conservatism).

[metesky]

Concentrate on the perceived insult and don't answer the questions. Very good.

[Sloth]

I'm not sure I get the premise, either. Perhaps you could post a couple of quotes from (well-known?) 'paleo-libertarians' praising Franco, or something along those lines, as an example. I consider myself a lowercase-'l' libertarian and a far-right winger, but I can't imagine many foreign leaders I could point to with anything but criticism.

[Madame Dufarge]

I would simply like honest, thought-out suggestions as to what it is that unites American "palaeolibertarians" with Old World Rightism

What is he connection? Why does it exist?

How on earth did you get the idea that American conservatives feel united with Old World Rightism?

I don't give it a second thought, and don't include it in my frame of reference for even a fleeting second.

[tpaine]

Zionist Conspirator wrote:

"I do not post this to start an argument with either libertarian capitalists or "palaeos," but because I sincerely do not understand the hypocrisy of American counterparts of foreign ideologies that are so different. Does anyone have any ideas as to what lies behind this phenomenon???"
____________________________________


There is no "phenomenon" as you see it. You are hallucinating positions for 'people' that do not exist.

Get some rest, then seek help.

[Madame Dufarge]

I have been around long enough (and was in the palaeoright JBS long enough) to learn that in America national socialism always came from the right, such as The American M*rc*ry, or the neo-Nazi National Youth Alliance which started as Youth for [George] Wallace in 1968. Why would neo-nazis rally around a man whose entire career was based on opposing government centralism?

I think you're confusing acolytes of Dr. Pierce, the crazy uncle in the attic, with American conservatives.

[Mr.Atos]

Here's a view of Libertarians that I am seeing increasingly in the Northwest...

From Why Not Reclaim the Left? by Wally Conger, 26 June 2002

Is there, today, enough common ground between Leftists and libertarians to build a brand new coalition to smash Corporate Leviathan? Well, the Left's "official" leadership is now a toothless lapdog to the Democratic Party, on the verge of hanging its "out of business" shingle. The commies are out of the picture. But a "Newer" New Left is growing, made up mostly of young anarchists. A new anti-war movement is flowering on campuses in response to the current War Without End. A mass anti-IMF/World Bank movement has been up and rolling for a couple of years. (Remember Seattle, Quebec, Washington, DC?) As Raimondo writes: "[The Left] is where all the vitality, the rebelliousness, the willingness to challenge the rules and strictures of an increasingly narrow and controlled national discourse resides." One group of radical libertarians has been laying the groundwork for a day of reconciliation with the Left since 1978. And they've actually made inroads. The Movement of the Libertarian Left (MLL) was founded by Samuel Edward Konkin III with this goal: to develop a coherent, long-term, non-political, anti-party strategy consistent with hard-core Rothbardian theory. Konkin and other Libertarian Leftists now interact regularly with New Leftists like Alexander Cockburn, Christopher Hitchens, Carl Oglesby, Jon Rappoport, and Noam Chomsky. MLL has a web page, a busy e-list, and newsletters and pamphlets appear frequently under its banner.

How Libertarians plan to reclaim the Left

The Libertarians are not trying to coopt the Left, but rather the radical Left is trying to Pirate the Libertarian movement.

[breakem]

If you understand measures of central tendencies and standard deviation you'll not be surprised at the various voiews which are out there.

[breakem]

or views for that matter

[swilhelm73]

You don't seem to like this answer...but it is the case.

NAZIism isn't on the left because it translates as National Socialism in English. NAZIism is on the left because its policies in fact *were* socialism with a nationalist bent. You can look at NAZI German agricultural policies, social insurance polices, etc, and you find that their primary differences from the Soviets is that they were much more practical and realistic in empowering the state.

Further there is no connection between libertarianism and what you are calling old world rightism. Given a choice between communists and fascists, the American right during the Cold War would generally side with the latter because we were at war with the former. Just as we sided with the communists against the fascists in WWII because we were then at war with the latter.

If you want a good look at the closest example of American style libertarianism in Europe, consider the slain Pym Fortuyn, not Le Pen (who is a national socialist).

Not surprisingly all national socialists are socialists and therefore creatures of the left. They have tended, like the NAZIs and Mussolini to be more practical and willing to make compromises in a way that the communists were not. This neither changes their goals nor where they belong on the political spectrum.

The apparent confrontation between the national socialists and international socialists that seem to be so important to those who categorize the former on the right is better understood as an intercine conflict, not much different then the conflict between Stalinists and Trotskyites, or Maoists and Leninists.

Overall the notion of fascism as a right wing phenomenon derives from Soviet propaganda in and after WWII. People in the west could not often be persuaded to help tyrannical communists in large numbers, but they could be persuaded to help 'anti-fascists'.

[Mr.Atos]

Understood. What I am saying is that it is worth examining what he is saying... and doing. If only to find out why. This phenomenon is not isolated to this forum.

[Madame Dufarge]

The Libertarians are not trying to coopt the Left, but rather the radical Left is trying to Pirate the Libertarian movement

IMHO, that's exactly what's happened.

I'm a former long-time subscriber to REASON, and have witnessed the descent.

Cancelled the subscription, too.

A gradual degradation of the thought process.

[metesky]

The Libertarians are not trying to coopt the Left, but rather the radical Left is trying to Pirate the Libertarian movement.

Agreed!

The Movement of the Libertarian Left (MLL) was founded by Samuel Edward Konkin III with this goal: to develop a coherent, long-term, non-political, anti-party strategy consistent with hard-core Rothbardian theory.

Ah, the left, eh? Only a leftist could envision a political movement that was non-political.

Konkin and other Libertarian Leftists now interact regularly with New Leftists like Alexander Cockburn, Christopher Hitchens, Carl Oglesby, Jon Rappoport, and Noam Chomsky.

Oops! Too late! Hitchens is already off the reservation as far as the wars go. He's seen the light and he ain't looking back.

[OPS4]

Karl Marx started with a planned left wing Utopia on the only to have it hijacked by the interpetation
of Hegel's theory of the dialectic, Totalitarian,
world domination.

The war mongers thought Hegel had a great ideal, and
decided to use it so they would become the rulers of the
world.

The problem is from the very inception of the concept of
communism, it ignored one fact that was most important,
it took away man's right to choose.

It is said that God made us all with a free will, so we
can choose on our own between good and evil, the minute
man thinks he can ignore God and do better, evil
triumphs every time.

Israel must live by the rule of the God of Abraham,
the right side, or the left wing will take them down the path of ruin.

Ops4 God Bless America!

[Madame Dufarge]

Overall the notion of fascism as a right wing phenomenon derives from Soviet propaganda in and after WWII. People in the west could not often be persuaded to help tyrannical communists in large numbers, but they could be persuaded to help 'anti-fascists'.

BINGO