IT happens only in India!

Economic Times of India ^ | August 10, 2003 | R SUBRAMANYAM

[Pro-Bush]

This is not just wrong-headed...it's a sophomoric sophistry. And from this reply with your lipservice about not liking losing U.S. jobs aside (a mere political inconvenience, eh?) I can tell you that you are not concerned about America...only Corporate Headquarters.

Wrong. I believe in free markets, open competition, less government regulation, and a firm believer in Laissez-faire economics.

You seem to have the notion that you are ENTITLED to not have to compete with foreigners for your job. Is this true?

[Pro-Bush]

...Post #41 meant for you, sent to myself in error.

[Lazamataz]

You seem to have the notion that you are ENTITLED to not have to compete with foreigners for your job. Is this true?

I seem to be entitled to work for 8,000 a year when rent is 9,000 a year.

Thanks a chunk.

[Pro-Bush]

US companies are seeking to minimize labor costs in order to maximize profits.

That's the capitalist business model that has worked fairly successfully for the past few hundred years. I don't blame corporate interests for striving to maximize profits.

[Lazamataz]

US companies are seeking to minimize labor costs in order to maximize profits. That's the capitalist business model that has worked fairly successfully for the past few hundred years. I don't blame corporate interests for striving to maximize profits.

And the hell with the rest of us, right?

[Ronzo]

Let's get one thing straight...those jobs going to India are NEVER coming back. I don't say this just to be pessimisstic, but rather it's a logical conclusion based on the realities of the modern world, plus the fact once any kind of job goes off-shore, it never comes back. If they do come back, it's usually as the employee of a FOREIGN-OWNED corporation.

I'm all for free markets and free trade, but India, China and the rest of Asia plays by very different rules than we do here in the good 'ole USA. In other words, they have governments that actually FAVOR business, often outrageously so. Our government, in contrast, (and I'm speaking of FEDERAL, STATE & LOCAL) does what they can to hinder business via means of regulations, taxes, and just plain stupidity. Many of you may be surprised that the State & Local government regulations & taxes can sometimes be more costly to a business than Federal regulations.

I love having access to low-priced, foreign made goods. But I don't like seeing so many of my freinds and co-workers out of work, many of them now being unemployed for one to two years. Well, technically they aren't really unemployed, just working at jobs that are paying them 10 to 30% of what they used to make. They range from engineers and programmers to graphic artists and accountants. We here in the Midwest have been hit especially hard, and the "recovery," in terms of new high-paying jobs, is still a far-off glimmer on the horizon.

P.S. The last conversation I had with a customer support person was an issue with a Microsoft application that had screwed up. The technician, once you got past the accent, was extremely helpful and had a fix in a matter of minutes. He was also based out of India -- forgot to ask him which city...

[Pro-Bush]

And the hell with the rest of us, right?

Painful as it is to be enduring offshore outsourcing's effects on domestic employment, any attempt to legislatively restrict the practice would instead give our international competitors, who are under no such restriction, a cost advantage. That situation would lead ultimately to job losses anyway - or possible company bankruptcies - as companies lose market share because of noncompetitive pricing.

The legislated alternative of forbidding job outsourcing is like building a fort on a sand beach that's washing away below the fort's foundations.

[Elliott Jackalope]

The whole "free-trade" argument really cracks me up. The people in favor of it love to go on and on about how wonderful it all is, while completely ignoring the fact that the people who are watching their jobs being shipped overseas are still allowed to vote.

Do you really want to see Hillary Clinton as President? Do you really want to see the Democrats take control of this country for the next forty years? Because that's EXACTLY what is going to be the result of this insane pursuit of profits at all costs, without any regard for the well-being of this country or the inevitable revolt by the voters at the polls.

Tell you what, since the corporations don't owe any loyalty to this country, and the politicians don't owe any loyalty to the people of this country, why don't you and your buddies go out and hire Ghurkas and Chicoms to fight in your next foreign war? Fair's fair and all that.

[Myrddin]

Biometrics, IT Security, Defense, Genome Tech, Software Dev, CRM, etc are in the up-and-up in America...We'll do fine.

Robert Mugabe forces his subsistence farmers to move to a new piece of land each year. As such, the farmer has no proprietary interest in improving the property to be more productive. The farmer knows any attempt to prosper via excellence will be confiscated.

I reference the state of farmers in Zimbabwe as a model for what is happening in America. In America, we build new technologies from the ground up. When they become mature, we hand them to 3rd world countries and throw those who did the innovation on the streets. We've done it to steel, manufacturing and IT. Why should Americans feel any motivation to continue to innovate and create new industries when the historical record shows they will be dispossessed of their success as soon as possible?

[Pro-Bush]

Do you really want to see Hillary Clinton as President? Do you really want to see the Democrats take control of this country for the next forty years? Because that's EXACTLY what is going to be the result of this insane pursuit of profits at all costs, without any regard for the well-being of this country or the inevitable revolt by the voters at the polls

What the hell are you talking about? You do not make any sense!

In a free-market economy, the consumer reigns.

Don't buy products from the likes of Direct TV or Microsoft if you feel so strongly about this.

I don't make the rules, and I don't recall The Bush administration, or any Republican for that matter, is pushing for limiting outsourcing.

[Pro-Bush]

I reference the state of farmers in Zimbabwe as a model for what is happening in America.

Poor analogy. America is nothing like Zimbabwe.

As the technological leaders of the world, Americans must, and have always adapted to change, and has always come out economically stronger, primarily for the reasons you stated regarding Steel and Manufacturing.

[Myrddin]

Poor analogy. America is nothing like Zimbabwe.

Multi-national corporations are not America. It is multi-national corporations that have taken the fruits of American ingenuity to foreign lands to reap a better bottom line with cheap labor. A corporation has ZERO loyalty to its employees. When Americans working for multi-national corporation create the next wave of technological breakthroughs, there should be absolutely no surprise when the new stuff flies offshore.

[Elliott Jackalope]

Since you didn't understand the first time, I'll try again and make this as clear as I can.

Joe Sixpack loses his job building washing machines to Mexico. His kid ends up losing his "hi-tech" job to China. Joe's daughter-in-law, who is married to his kid, loses her tech support job to India. Now Joe is in debt for his mortgage and car payments, his kid is still in debt for student loans, and his kid and his daughter-in-law are moving back in with Joe and his wife, since they can no longer pay their rent. Needless to say, Joe Sixpack and the rest of his family are more than a little peeved by this turn of events.

Along comes Howie Dean, ranting and raving about how this country has turned its back on American citizens by allowing Corporate America to ship all of our jobs to China and India. Joe Sixpack, his wife, his kid and his daughter-in-law all vote in the next election for Howie Dean and for a bunch of other Democrats who promise to "do something" about this trend of outsourcing and offshoring American jobs. Joe Sixpack's neighbors, who are all in a similar position, do the same, resulting in a victory for Democrats. Now do you get the picture?

[Pro-Bush]

I do understand your point, but I am confident Bush will win without imposing legislation on halting outsourcing.

I don't like it when US companies outsource their software development or call center customer or trouble-shooting services.

I have more faith in Joe six-pack's ability to pick himself off his feet and start his own business, or educate himself for upcoming industries that pay big bucks.

I, have been laid off by Lucent & SBC in my career. In both cases the job I got following paid more than the one I got laid off from.

[Elliott Jackalope]

"I do understand your point, but I am confident Bush will win without imposing legislation on halting outsourcing."

I'm not calling for legislation on halting outsourcing. I am calling for tariffs on products imported from countries that impose tariffs on our products. China and India impose high tariffs on our goods while we allow their goods in without any tariff whatsoever. That's just not right!

"I don't like it when US companies outsource their software development or call center customer or trouble-shooting services."

Neither do I. Furthermore, I think we should do something about it instead of allowing critical industries to be gutted.

"I have more faith in Joe six-pack's ability to pick himself off his feet and start his own business, or educate himself for upcoming industries that pay big bucks."

I've started my own business before, and I'm looking into doing it again. However, I'm afraid that most people don't have that ability. It takes a lot of drive, determination, ability and discipline to start your own business and make money doing so. The majority of the population doesn't have those qualities, but they do vote.

"I have been laid off by Lucent & SBC in my career. In both cases the job I got following paid more than the one I got laid off from."

Been there, done that. That's why I like my own businesses instead. However, once again, most people don't have what it takes to pull that off.

The bottom line is that free trade is a great idea in vitro, or in the economic equivalent of a test tube. However, once applied in vivo, i.e. in the real world, it doesn't work out so good. It results in a lot of people who get very upset, and they tend to react at the polls. If the public thinks that Bush doesn't care about this issue, they will vote for someone they think does care. That's my point, and my concern.

[Pro-Bush]

I agree with you more than I disagree, especially regarding repreciprical free trade. The examples you gave regarding China and India are well noted.

My focus in this thread is outsourcing and "true" free trade, and taking the position that limiting our corporations ability from doing so is a bad thing for America's economic health in the macro sense.

I do, although have more faith in the average worker who loses their job. American's are generally brought up with the survival of the fittest mentality, and overcome hardship.

[cars for sale]

not to mention upcoming lite space travel...
seem what the Hilton Hotel and Vegas' Bigelow
are doing ?

[Pro-Bush]

...No I haven't. Please do tell.

[cars for sale]

know those big ass rockets they use when the shuttle
blasts off ? Well Hilton and Bigelow own some 68ish
of em and are to enjoin then in circles with verticle columns and have a Space Hilton. Serious business
there are web pages and Art Bell has had em on umpteen times.....the employment to start is like 22,ooo
and funny,disabled and those with missing limbs in part or full and wheel chair bound are FIRST HIRE as weightlessness equals some disabled. As well some
already receive gubment substanance. Way cool is
target times of 'tween 07 and ot 10.

[Paul Ross]

Wrong. You don't in fact believe in free markets, or 'open competition' OR less government regulation... as the Indians and Chinese we are being devastated by are HIGHLY PROTECTIONIST and regulated. They are set up as trade war machines. And they artificially keep their currency low. And the PRC expressly prevents wages from going up. This is in major part why we are losing.

We puny little INDIVIDUALS are having to compete globally against masssive NATIONAL predators. Their coordinated actions will always prevail. And our Nation (thanks to State Dept/Cato idealogues like you)...which is supposed to protect against precisely this kind of attack has deserted its people and is fiddling while Rome burns.

None of the free traitors, including you have denied the fact that what we are seeing from China is a more-patient reprise of the New Economic Program of Russia in 1925. It is all a trap for U.S. capital.