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Ultimate insult for American programmers as employers seek cheaper labor
modesto bee ^ | 8-11-03 | Rachel Konrad

Posted on 08/11/2003 9:47:23 AM PDT by hoosierskypilot

Edited on 04/13/2004 1:56:04 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

SAN JOSE, Calif. (AP) - Scott Kirwin clung to his job at a large investment bank through several rounds of layoffs last year. Friends marveled at the computer programmer's ability to dodge pink slips during the worst technology downturn in a decade. But it was tough for Kirwin, 36, to relish his final assignment: training a group of programmers from India who would replace him within a year.


(Excerpt) Read more at modbee.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: employment; h1b; l1; labor; outsourcing; software; visa; visas
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1 posted on 08/11/2003 9:47:25 AM PDT by hoosierskypilot
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To: hoosierskypilot; harpseal
"If someone does something really well, we want the person who's going to perform a similar function abroad to learn from the master. Then the person in the United States will continue to do their job just as before," Dundas said.

... Dundas said while holding back a laugh.

[ Texas Instruments ]: "You have a declining pool from which to draw, and more of those people are foreign nationals," Larson said.

Care to back that up with any figures? We don't have enough smart people in our country. What's that? Oh we don't have enough smart people that want to work for $5k a year.
2 posted on 08/11/2003 10:06:06 AM PDT by lelio
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To: lelio
I had to train my IT replacement last year. It blows.
3 posted on 08/11/2003 10:09:01 AM PDT by scottlang
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To: lelio
Perhaps Dundas in a member of that organization which believes its OK to lie as long as it advances the cause of your group or a member of your group.
4 posted on 08/11/2003 10:11:41 AM PDT by Dialup Llama
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To: hoosierskypilot
The out-sourced job's are in India not the United States. So Taxes are not paid in the US.

5 posted on 08/11/2003 10:12:19 AM PDT by usnret99 (I served! Have You?)
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To: scottlang
That does suck...I hope you filled the replacements head full of crap so that they are ineffective...one dirty trick deserves another...
6 posted on 08/11/2003 10:14:38 AM PDT by MD_Willington_1976
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To: usnret99; clamper1797; sarcasm; BrooklynGOP; A. Pole; Zorrito; GiovannaNicoletta; Caipirabob; ...
ping


on or off let me know
7 posted on 08/11/2003 10:15:52 AM PDT by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: lelio
"Intel provides L-1 workers a cost-of-living adjustment if they work at the Santa Clara headquarters or elsewhere in the United States. Intel pays for housing, cars, return trips to the workers' home countries and full medical benefits - a package that ends up costing significantly more than hiring an American, she said."

Well, such a deal. Where do we Americans go to apply for that glorious deal?

8 posted on 08/11/2003 10:17:19 AM PDT by Lion in Winter
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To: hoosierskypilot
Bump to read later.
9 posted on 08/11/2003 10:18:15 AM PDT by dalebert
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To: hoosierskypilot
"They called it 'knowledge acquisition,'" the Wilmington, Del., resident said.

Information Technology is now a commodity, like Mexican laborers.
10 posted on 08/11/2003 10:18:45 AM PDT by AD from SpringBay (We have the government we allow and deserve.)
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To: MD_Willington_1976
I just played along until I found a new job. I then quit.
11 posted on 08/11/2003 10:24:51 AM PDT by scottlang
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To: lelio
"Intel provides L-1 workers a cost-of-living adjustment if they work at the Santa Clara headquarters or elsewhere in the United States. Intel pays for housing, cars, return trips to the workers' home countries and full medical benefits - a package that ends up costing significantly more than hiring an American, she said."

Well, such a deal. Where do we Americans go to apply for that glorious deal?

12 posted on 08/11/2003 10:26:41 AM PDT by Lion in Winter
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To: Lion in Winter
American need not apply!!!
13 posted on 08/11/2003 10:27:27 AM PDT by scottlang
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To: scottlang
those who've worked in the field know that these types of IT positions are usually held by those who couldn't cut it in a real, competitive or R&D environment. Their labor truly is repetitive and boring and near always attracts the least qualified of candidates. Only once in my professional career did I entertain such a position, leading new development of the in-house trading systems for one of the nations largest mutual fund companies. What I found & confirmed, however, was that all of the other people who worked in the company, under the auspices of IT, outside my direct hire line, were complete & total idiots and would all h ave been barely capable of holding technology positions in near any other environment. Seriously, near absolute morons. Then, one day, I was speaking with the Executive VP of the IT Dept. and he "confessed" that the job he was now holding was what he'd always dreamed about, "back in the days (he) started as a JANITOR for Salomon Smith Barney" (not the company we were then working for). That little tidbit confirmed all my worst suspicions and I got out, quickly, and never again considered working with or for anybody that would fall under the umbrella of "IT"
14 posted on 08/11/2003 10:34:20 AM PDT by Steven W.
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To: hoosierskypilot
And some labor experts say out-of-work programmers should stop complaining, and focus on their own re-training

Well gee... it would be nice to first pay of the loans of the last re-training.

Ohh well, I'll stay in default.

15 posted on 08/11/2003 10:36:58 AM PDT by StatesEnemy
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To: StatesEnemy
Ohh well, I'll stay in default

I was just thinking to myself this morning that I hope every one of you IT guys that's lives are being turned upside down defaults on your student loans.

16 posted on 08/11/2003 10:40:40 AM PDT by riri
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To: scottlang
I'm the temp replacement for a Nigerian. In 9 months, my job goes poof, as they've "promised" to give it back to him.

Mind you, I might have a little chat with the INS. . .
17 posted on 08/11/2003 10:50:56 AM PDT by Salgak (don't mind me: the orbital mind control lasers are making me write this. . .)
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To: hoosierskypilot
I had the unparallel pleasure of training my H1B replacement at Motorola before my lay-off. We actually became friends. He told me the stories about his time at Teiniman Square as he was one of the protesters. He was a nice guy and it was NOT HIS fault that he was an H1B. I would have done the same in his shoes.

That being said ... it is immoral, unethical and UN-AMERICAN to replace American workers with cheap foreign labor especially on our home soil.

18 posted on 08/11/2003 10:57:32 AM PDT by clamper1797 (Conservative by nature ... Republican in Spirit ... Patriot by Heart ... and Anti Liberal BY GOD)
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To: hoosierskypilot
"With U.S. colleges graduating fewer U.S.-born engineers and the population of foreign-born science graduates mushrooming, TI has to look overseas for talent, spokesman Dan Larson said."

This is the attitude that frosts me more than anything else.

Engineers are out of work all over, not just IT types and programmers. Who can blame bright young college students for NOT majoring in engineering and computer science when all they have to look forward to is competition with those that work for $5/hr. or less?

19 posted on 08/11/2003 10:59:21 AM PDT by nightdriver
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To: Steven W.
those who've worked in the field know that these types of IT positions are usually held by those who couldn't cut it in a real, competitive or R&D environment

Excuse me ... it's not just "jelly bean" programmers that are being replaced by H1B's. I personally know at least several dozen cutting edge hardware design engineers ... some with advanced degrees who are out of work or were out for extended periods of time because of the H1B program ... including myself.

20 posted on 08/11/2003 11:04:30 AM PDT by clamper1797 (Conservative by nature ... Republican in Spirit ... Patriot by Heart ... and Anti Liberal BY GOD)
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To: clamper1797
An employer who is hiring H1-B's for positions in which there is an ample supply of citizen talent is breaking the law. I've read a lot of posts about people being "personally" "replaced" by an H1-B. If that's true, you have a legitimate lawsuit on your hands, either for personal gain or simple revenge.

But I never read posts about such actions, or read about them in the paper. It must be a conspiracy.

21 posted on 08/11/2003 11:09:46 AM PDT by Mr. Bird
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To: Mr. Bird
Sun Microsystems is being sued for H1B violations right now
22 posted on 08/11/2003 11:13:43 AM PDT by clamper1797 (Conservative by nature ... Republican in Spirit ... Patriot by Heart ... and Anti Liberal BY GOD)
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To: Mr. Bird
I've read a lot of posts about people being "personally" "replaced" by an H1-B

and so you think we are all lying about it ????

23 posted on 08/11/2003 11:15:49 AM PDT by clamper1797 (Conservative by nature ... Republican in Spirit ... Patriot by Heart ... and Anti Liberal BY GOD)
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To: clamper1797
That's great! Did individual employees/candidates file the suits, or did the government go after them?
24 posted on 08/11/2003 11:16:02 AM PDT by Mr. Bird
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To: Mr. Bird
Not sure ... I do know it for sure though ... it was posted out here a few months ago and I read it in the Merky News. I believe it was some former employees though.My brothers girl friend was an HR VP for them ... I could ask her.
25 posted on 08/11/2003 11:18:40 AM PDT by clamper1797 (Conservative by nature ... Republican in Spirit ... Patriot by Heart ... and Anti Liberal BY GOD)
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To: clamper1797
and so you think we are all lying about it

NO! But everything I read here leads me to believe the incidence of violations is through the roof, but no one is getting busted for it. I have hired H1-B's in the past (non-IT positions), and I followed both the spirit and the letter of the law. I would have no problem with violating companies being brought to their knees.

26 posted on 08/11/2003 11:19:27 AM PDT by Mr. Bird
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To: hoosierskypilot
On the one hand it seems like an immoral practice for a company to force workers to train replacements. On the other hand, workers in IT have a reputation for jumping ship often and frequently for higher-paying jobs.

Here's a typical story: A worker was at a company making X dollars per hour. He took a new job at a new company for X + 1 dollars per hour. 8 months later his new job was deleted from the org chart and the worker went back to his old company to get his old job back, but the job was, of course, taken, so now instead of having two jobs to choose from, the worker has no job to choose from. Whose fault? Do Americans have a natural born right to a job even after showing zero loyalty?

27 posted on 08/11/2003 11:20:40 AM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Law of the Excluded Middle)
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To: Mr. Bird
Thanks ... I have seen you post and wasn't sure if you were one of the free traitors or not ... seems that you're not. It's hard to sue a company in high tech. I'm in what is called EDA .... and though there are a several hundred of us in the field, it's really more close knit than one would think. Word such as suing a company gets around. Chances are ... win or lose ... that the person who sues a company will never get a job in EDA again.
28 posted on 08/11/2003 11:23:50 AM PDT by clamper1797 (Conservative by nature ... Republican in Spirit ... Patriot by Heart ... and Anti Liberal BY GOD)
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To: RightWhale
Do Americans have a natural born right to a job even after showing zero loyalty?

Americans DO NOT have a right to a job BUT they DO have a right to keep foreign nationals out of our country. Contrary to what"free traitors" and some Libertarians say ... we do not and should not have completely open borders

29 posted on 08/11/2003 11:27:17 AM PDT by clamper1797 (Conservative by nature ... Republican in Spirit ... Patriot by Heart ... and Anti Liberal BY GOD)
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To: clamper1797
My contract ended last week, so I'm another displaced IT worker hustling for another job.

So far, I have had two job interviews last week and two more scheduled for this week. I have also submitted my resume at http://www.usajobs.com where U.S. citizens ONLY can apply.

I also reformatted my resume so that it's easier to read. On the first page I have a list of all my skills, divided into categories: software, hardware, operating systems, languages. I have also bolded the skills in the "experience" section so that, if they get past first page, they see exactly how I acquired and used those skills.

Oh yes, and I pray every day that G-D will provide for my family and not allow us to become destitute.

30 posted on 08/11/2003 11:27:40 AM PDT by Alouette (Every democratic politician should live next door to a pimp, so he can have someone to look up to.)
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To: clamper1797
I have seen you post and wasn't sure if you were one of the free traitors or not ... seems that you're not

You should probably withhold that judgement, at least based on the flames I've taken in the past. I am a free trade proponent, generally, and am against (again, generally) protectionist tariffs. I'm sensitive to the labor issues, but haven't been pulled over to the other side (yours, I assume) yet.

31 posted on 08/11/2003 11:31:14 AM PDT by Mr. Bird
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To: riri
I was just thinking to myself this morning that I hope every one of you IT guys that's lives are being turned upside down defaults on your student loans.

They did this to EE's in the early nineties.

There is no satisfaction to be had from the student loan default, as they garnish your taxes refunds and wages(if necessary) to get it back, with penalties and interest.

32 posted on 08/11/2003 11:33:10 AM PDT by Yeti
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To: Dialup Llama
"Perhaps Dundas in a member of that organization which believes its OK to lie as long as it advances the cause of your group or a member of your group."

Democrats? haha, I kill me.
33 posted on 08/11/2003 11:34:30 AM PDT by toothless
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To: clamper1797
we do not and should not have completely open borders

I used to think the gov't was to protect us and guide the economy, to govern. But it turned out to be a little different. The gov't protects the country as a whole and if somebody finds they have a good deal one year and next year gets dumped out on their head, well that goes on all the time. The individual citizens have recourse. In our system recourse takes the form of personal rights to make claim against the gov't.

The gov't is not beneficent. The gov't is supremely indifferent.

34 posted on 08/11/2003 11:35:56 AM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Law of the Excluded Middle)
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To: Alouette
Oh yes, and I pray every day that G-D will provide for my family and not allow us to become destitute.

I was out over nine months last year .. I went completely thru my savings but I was able to save my house but it was close ... way to close. I now have a job that is remotely related to my expertise (ASIC design) it pays a lot less but it makes the mortgage. I thank GOD every single day for this job as I have a LOT of friends who not as lucky. I pray for you too as I know the pain and frustration that you are going thru. One has to live thru it to appreciate it ... that's one of the reasons why I get so angry at the free traitors. They would subject good honest hard working Americans to this just to make an easy buck ... without ANY loyalty to their fellow American and then they try to justify it by calling it "free trade" or "capitalism" ...

35 posted on 08/11/2003 11:37:22 AM PDT by clamper1797 (Conservative by nature ... Republican in Spirit ... Patriot by Heart ... and Anti Liberal BY GOD)
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To: Mr. Bird
but haven't been pulled over to the other side (yours, I assume) yet.

The point is that you are considering and examining "our" side which ... at least in my eyes ... puts you out of the "free traitor" ranks

36 posted on 08/11/2003 11:39:53 AM PDT by clamper1797 (Conservative by nature ... Republican in Spirit ... Patriot by Heart ... and Anti Liberal BY GOD)
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To: clamper1797
The longest I was ever out of work was from 1992-1995 after being laid off from GM during what could only be described as "the night of the long knives." They started from the top, kicked out the CEO (Roger Smith) and worked their way down.

Guess under whose administration that massacre took place?

One more thing, I always write a thank-you letter to the interviewer and the recruiter and send it by snail mail. Sending resumes by snail mail or fax is also likely to get more attention than an email response to a listing on Monster or one of those other job boards.

37 posted on 08/11/2003 11:42:46 AM PDT by Alouette (Every democratic politician should live next door to a pimp, so he can have someone to look up to.)
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To: All
Personal opinion:

This will all stop as soon as someone in the media starts writing about the failure rates being experienced.

The cause of all this is Dilbert pointy-haired managers believing what is written by reporters. The reporters write in glowing terms about off-shoring, without once anywhere mentioning that it's failing everywhere it's tried.

Consider: in the recent past, these same folks told us

It's a lie. And if you want it to end, just get some reporter somewhere to do an expose.

Just look at the success rates of off-shoring. It's dramatic. In our case, we haven't been able to find one single success story!

38 posted on 08/11/2003 11:53:27 AM PDT by Dominic Harr
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To: Alouette
I don't know about the software jobs posted on Monster BUT I do know that most of the hardware jobs listed on it are BOGUS. How do I know ...cause I interviewed for them over 18 months ago and so have several of my VERY well qualified friends. Had those jobs been for real, they would have filled the first few days ... but here we are 19 months later and those ads are still there ... example ... all the NVIDIA ads have been there since Jan 2001.
39 posted on 08/11/2003 11:59:10 AM PDT by clamper1797 (Conservative by nature ... Republican in Spirit ... Patriot by Heart ... and Anti Liberal BY GOD)
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To: clamper1797
After seeing a lot of these posts I'm starting to smell the stench of yet another fedgov "program" that somehow rewards companies for doing all this offshoring similar to US AID and OPIC which actually provides $$ to companies seeking to move mfg. operations overseas. Anyone else getting the same sort of odious whiff of another American sellout program?
40 posted on 08/11/2003 12:04:17 PM PDT by american spirit (ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION = NATIONAL SUICIDE)
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To: american spirit
Anyone else getting the same sort of odious whiff of another American sellout program?

Absolutely

41 posted on 08/11/2003 12:05:58 PM PDT by clamper1797 (Conservative by nature ... Republican in Spirit ... Patriot by Heart ... and Anti Liberal BY GOD)
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To: Mr. Bird
If that's true, you have a legitimate lawsuit on your hands, either for personal gain or simple revenge. But I never read posts about such actions, or read about them in the paper. It must be a conspiracy.

The fact is, lawyers will not take these actions on a contingency basis. So you have essentially middle class people trying to pay for their lawyers (and this after they are living on unemployment comp. or at a substandard job) to sue MegaLith Outsourcing Corp. and its team of top-notch litigators who will bury the other side in discovery demands and depositions expenses. Hence the reluctance for taking such cases on a contingency.

42 posted on 08/11/2003 12:10:46 PM PDT by Paul Ross (A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one!-A. Hamilton)
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To: clamper1797
I don't know about the software jobs posted on Monster BUT I do know that most of the hardware jobs listed on it are BOGUS.

Monster.com is owned by an anti-gun zealot (whose name escapes me at the moment), and, like most of their ilk, is probably a liar to boot. So it wouldn't surprise me if the jobs on their site are bogus.

43 posted on 08/11/2003 12:19:42 PM PDT by cmak9
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To: Alouette
My prayers for you and yours also; it is something no hardworking American should have to deal with. Unfortunately, the times they are a changing.

As a web programmer I understand your plight. Although I seem to be safe now, one never can predict the future. Everyday I look at my wife and kids and wonder what the hell I'll do if they come for me. I think the only thing saving me is that my employer is a mutual company. The stock companies seem to be much more willing to outsource to meet stock holder expectations.

Many freepers really don't understand what it takes to be compete in this field; 60-70 hour weeks are common place for me. These do not even include the hours required to keep up with the ever changing technologies I am required to master. Re-tooling is next to impossible if I wish to keep my current position.

I ain't crying; I'm just confused about how to proceed.

Again, I pray you find a good job and peace of mind soon.
44 posted on 08/11/2003 12:22:28 PM PDT by PigRigger (Send donations to http://www.AdoptAPlatoon.org)
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To: PigRigger
Maybe being a contractor and having to hustle for another assignment every 6 months has kept my job-hunting skills in fitness. Nevertheless it sucks everytime my contract ends, but I have never yet had to train a replacement.

I have a website that I started "just for fun." I have banner ads and sell stuff through affiliate programs like amazon, commission junction and various other online stores, but it's not enough to support a family on, just a little extra to make up for the paycuts that I have had to endure since the "boom" of 1999-2000 (The Y2K insanity).

45 posted on 08/11/2003 12:27:58 PM PDT by Alouette (Every democratic politician should live next door to a pimp, so he can have someone to look up to.)
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To: PigRigger; harpseal; Willie Green
bump
46 posted on 08/11/2003 12:28:24 PM PDT by RaceBannon
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To: Cacique
FYI
47 posted on 08/11/2003 12:29:52 PM PDT by nutmeg (Is the DemocRATic party extinct yet?)
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To: PigRigger
I don't mean to downplay the impact of offshoring, but the real culprit is the bad economy. There are simply not enough projects to go around right now. For any new project, the projected ROI has to be outrageous as well as the payback period, or it's a non-starter. So even if you are on the "bleeding edge" you are having a hard time since companies are just making with what they currently have.

48 posted on 08/11/2003 12:38:31 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: PigRigger
In a sad sort of way this thread is reminiscent of the old "first they came for the trade unionists and I did nothing because I wasn't one of them"......now it's become "first they came for the factory jobs and I did nothing, then they came for the carpenters and plumbers jobs and I did nothing, now they've come for mine and there's nobody left to help defend me and my job".
49 posted on 08/11/2003 12:45:07 PM PDT by american spirit (ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION = NATIONAL SUICIDE)
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To: MD_Willington_1976
Bingo - that's the ticket. Soft sabotage.
50 posted on 08/11/2003 12:45:47 PM PDT by Noumenon (Crush the Left, see them driven before you, hear the lamentations of the metrosexuals.)
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