New Dinosaur Species Found in India

AP ^ | August 13, 2003 | RAMOLA TALWAR BADAM

[Ichneumon]

If you assume that amount of time will produce the results which you suggest.

No need to "assume" it. Known (i.e. measured) rates of accumulation of mutations in a population match quite well the amount of genetic difference between modern species versus their apparent ancestral link.

[Alamo-Girl]

Or a distortion of genetic information. You don't have information added that would be necessary for something to jump from one kind of an animal to another (i.e., from Ape to human).

Er, if I may offer a link for the discussion. This article by G. Yagil on the structural complexity of templated systems might be helpful in breaking down what is meant by complexity in biological systems (from both sides.)

[VadeRetro]

Dykes can be more interesting, in certain circumstances. ;-)

If you're a girl, or if you just like to watch ...

[Ichneumon]

Define genetic information. Then define how it is added and then subtracted.

And note that Spetner's claim that "mutations can't don't information" rests upon a extremely, um, unusual definition of "information" which only Spetner subscribes to, so if DittoJed2's source is Spetner, it's going to be a fun ride.

[VadeRetro]

There are feathered dinos, birds with big foreclaws in their wings, Archaepteryx (the almost-perfectly halfway thing) ...

But Ditto has already announced that evidence doesn't matter.

[Aracelis]

I have land for sale about 40 miles west of the Golden Gate bridge too!

Hey! You're NOT selling it, AND you were supposed to keep that island a secret! Now where will put our phase-linked radiotelescopes???

[Ichneumon]

You don't have information added that would be necessary for something to jump from one kind of an animal to another (i.e., from Ape to human).

No genetic differences between man and modern apes has yet been found to be of a type that is out of the ordinary for genetic mutations.

For example, check out this example:

CHRM2 gene for muscarinic acetylcholine receptor m2, partial cds
updated: 9/11/00

seq id  sequence name
-----------------------------
     1  human (M16404 in Database) - local file -     
     2  human (SN; AB041391 determined by Silver Project) - local file -      
     3  chimpanzee (220; AB041392 determined by Silver Project) - local file -          
     4  gorilla (U1; AB041393 determined by Silver Project) - local file -         
     5  orangutan (U1; AB041394 determined by Silver Project) - local file -           
nucleotides 1 - 60
   1 ttgtcctggtggctggatccctcagtttggtgaccattatcgggaacatcctagtcatgg
   2 ............................................................
   3 ............................................................
   4 ............................................................
   5 ............................................................
     ------------------------------------------------------------
nucleotides 61 - 120
   1 tttccattaaagtcaaccgccacctccagaccgtcaacaattactttttattcagcttgg
   2 ............................................................
   3 ............................................................
   4 .................................................g..........
   5 ...............................t.................g..........
     -------------------------------+-----------------+----------
nucleotides 121 - 180
   1 cctgtgctgaccttatcataggtgttttctccatgaacttgtacaccctctacactgtga
   2 ............................................................
   3 ............................................................
   4 ............................................................
   5 ............................................................
     ------------------------------------------------------------
nucleotides 181 - 240
   1 ttggttactggcctttgggacctgtggtgtgtgacctttggctagccctggactatgtgg
   2 ............................................................
   3 ............................................................
   4 ............................................................
   5 .........................t..................................
     -------------------------+----------------------------------
nucleotides 241 - 300
   1 tcagcaatgcctcagttatgaatctgctcatcatcagctttgacaggtacttctgtgtca
   2 ............................................................
   3 ............................................................
   4 ............................................................
   5 .............g..............................................
     -------------+----------------------------------------------
nucleotides 301 - 360
   1 caaaacctctgacctacccagtcaagcggaccacaaaaatggcaggtatgatgattgcag
   2 ............................................................
   3 ............................................................
   4 ............................................................
   5 ............................................................
     ------------------------------------------------------------
nucleotides 361 - 420
   1 ctgcctgggtcctctctttcatcctctgggctccagccattctcttctggcagttcattg
   2 ............................................................
   3 ............................................................
   4 ............................................................
   5 ............................................................
     ------------------------------------------------------------
nucleotides 421 - 480
   1 taggggtgagaactgtggaggatggggagtgctacattcagtttttttccaatgctgctg
   2 ............................................................
   3 ............................................................
   4 ............................................................
   5 ............................................................
     ------------------------------------------------------------
nucleotides 481 - 540
   1 tcacctttggtacggctattgcagccttctatttgccagtgatcatcatgactgtgctat
   2 ............................................................
   3 ............................................................
   4 ................c...........................................
   5 ................c.........................................g.
     ----------------+-----------------------------------------+-
nucleotides 541 - 600
   1 attggcacatatcccgagccagcaagagcaggataaagaaggacaagaaggagcctgttg
   2 ............................................................
   3 .................................................a..........
   4 ............................................................
   5 .c..........................................................
     -+-----------------------------------------------+----------
nucleotides 601 - 660
   1 ccaaccaagaccccgtttctccaagtctggtacaaggaaggatagtgaagccaaacaata
   2 ............................................................
   3 ............................................................
   4 ............................................................
   5 ............................................................
     ------------------------------------------------------------
nucleotides 661 - 720
   1 acaacatgcccagcagtgacgatggcctggagcacaacaaaatccagaatggcaaagccc
   2 ............................................................
   3 ............................................................
   4 ............................................................
   5 ............................................................
     ------------------------------------------------------------
nucleotides 721 - 780
   1 ccagggatcctgtgactgaaaactgtgttcagggagaggagaaggagagctccaatgact
   2 ............................................................
   3 ............................................................
   4 ............................................................
   5 ....a................................a......................
     ----+--------------------------------+----------------------
nucleotides 781 - 840
   1 ccacctcagtcagtgctgttgcctctaatatgagagatgatgaaataacccaggatgaaa
   2 ............................................................
   3 ............................................................
   4 ............................................................
   5 ........................................c...................
     ----------------------------------------+-------------------
nucleotides 841 - 900
   1 acacagtttccacttccctgggccattccaaagatgagaactctaagcaaacatgcatca
   2 ............................................................
   3 ............................................................
   4 ............................................................
   5 .......c................................t...................
     -------+--------------------------------+-------------------
nucleotides 901 - 960
   1 gaattggcaccaagaccccaaaaagtgactcatgtaccccaactaataccaccgtggagg
   2 ............................................................
   3 ............................................................
   4 ............................................................
   5 ...................c....t.............t.....................
     -------------------+----+-------------+---------------------
nucleotides 961 - 1020
   1 tagtggggtcttcaggtcagaatggagatgaaaagcagaatattgtagcccgcaagattg
   2 ............................................................
   3 ............................................................
   4 ............................................................
   5 .......a....................................................
     -------+----------------------------------------------------
nucleotides 1021 - 1080
   1 tgaagatgactaagcagcctgcaaaaaagaagcctcctccttcccgggaaaagaaagtca
   2 ............................................................
   3 ............................................................
   4 ................n...........................................
   5 ............................................................
     ----------------+-------------------------------------------
nucleotides 1081 - 1140
   1 ccaggacaatcttggctattctgttggctttcatcatcacttgggccccatacaatgtca
   2 ............................................................
   3 ............................................................
   4 ............................................................
   5 ............................................................
     ------------------------------------------------------------
nucleotides 1141 - 1200
   1 tggtgctcattaacaccttttgtgcaccttgcatccccaacactgtgtggacaattggtt
   2 ............................................................
   3 ............................................................
   4 ............................................................
   5 ............................................................
     ------------------------------------------------------------
nucleotides 1201 - 1260
   1 actggctttgttacatcaacagcactatcaaccctgcctgctatgcactttgcaatgcca
   2 ............................................................
   3 ....................................................t.......
   4 ....................................................t.......
   5 ....................................................t.......
     ----------------------------------------------------+-------
nucleotides 1261 - 1320
   1 ccttcaagaagacctttaaacaccttctcatgtgtcattataagaacataggcgctacaa
   2 ............................................................
   3 ............................................................
   4 ............................................................
   5 ............................................................
     ------------------------------------------------------------
nucleotides 1321 - 1332
   1 ggtaaaa-----
   2 ............
   3 .......tatct
   4 ............
   5 ............
     -------+++++

The differences between, say, man and chimp are just a very small number of point mutations, plus 5 basepairs tacked on the end which may be the tail-end "fuzz" that sometimes accumulates on genes during copying (and which gorillas and orangutans don't even have either).

[BMCDA]

If you have a string and apply some change to it you have new information. The original information may be lost but after the change occurs you have new information.
Are you sure you don't mix up two different information concepts (Shannon and Kolmogorov-Chaitin)? It's a mistake that's very common among creationists. As well as their equating information with meaning.
Here you can read more about this.

And, a dinosaur with feathers is a dinosaur.

A dinosaur with bird-like features ;)
The problem is you seem to think that these categories (dinosaur, bird) are somehow fixed with sharp boundaries. But this is not the case. You have a population that changes over time and somehow you have to subdivide this continuum. Now where do you draw the line? This can be as arbitrary as determining at which wavelength green ends and blue begins.

[goodseedhomeschool (returned)]

Thank you so much for lowering yourself to my level. You must be a Bible scholar and I am merely a pleeb. I am not worthy to talk to you because you are just too smart for me so I think I will simply bow out of your grovel. See Ya.

[goodseedhomeschool (returned)]

Are you suggesting that I leave this forum? To promote another website as you have, would seem as though you are being counterproductive to Free Republic. Your post indicates that perhaps me, as a Christian, would be happier on say.... a Christian website? Your post is very telling sir/madam.

[DittoJed2]

Which was a bird. Try to keep up.

[BMCDA]

And "a dinosaur plus a little more bird" sure sounds like Archaeopteryx.

Not necessarily. I think Sinornithosaurus would suffice.

[DittoJed2]

No, you have changed information. It hasn't introduced something brand new.

If I have a pie and I cut a piece of the pie, the pie has changed, but it hasn't become something else. If I have a crayon, and the sun melts it, the basic components are still there and it is still a crayon. To have an ape turn into a human you would have to introduce human genomes into the system of the ape. You do not have that with random mutation (and, I would argue it wouldn't work if you did it in a laboratory since humans and apes do not share offspring.).

[VadeRetro]

Left out the link in my last post which actually detailed the "boiling oceans" calculations and now I can't find it again. It turns out however that Baumgardner's own figures agree.

Runaway subduction. John Baumgardner created the runaway subduction model, which proposes that the pre-Flood lithosphere (ocean floor), being denser than the underlying mantle, began sinking. The heat released in the process decreased the viscosity of the mantle, so the process accelerated catastrophically. All the original lithosphere became subducted; the rising magma which replaced it raised the ocean floor, causing sea levels to rise and boiling off enough of the ocean to cause 150 days of rain. When it cooled, the ocean floor lowered again, and the Flood waters receded. Sedimentary mountains such as the Sierras and Andes rose after the Flood by isostatic rebound. [Baumgardner, 1990a; Austin et al., 1994]

• The main difficulty of this theory is that it admittedly doesn't work without miracles. [Baumgardner, 1990a, 1990b] The thermal diffusivity of the earth, for example, would have to increase 10,000 fold to get the subduction rates proposed [Matsumura, 1997], and miracles are also necessary to cool the new ocean floor and to raise sedimentary mountains in months rather than in the millions of years it would ordinarily take.
• Baumgardner estimates a release of 10²⁸ joules from the subduction process. This is more than enough to boil off all the oceans. In addition, Baumgardner postulates that the mantle was much hotter before the Flood (giving it greater viscosity); that heat would have to go somewhere, too.
• Cenozoic sediments are post-Flood according to this model. Yet fossils from Cenozoic sediments alone show a 65-million-year record of evolution, including a great deal of the diversification of mammals and angiosperms. [Carroll, 1997, chpts. 5, 6, & 13]
• Subduction on the scale Baumgardner proposes would have produced very much more vulcanism around plate boundaries than we see. [Matsumura, 1997]

Problems with a Global Flood, 2nd Edition.

[DittoJed2]

Indicating the same designer, not the same ancestor. By the way, what is the genetic difference between ape and man? I've heard less than 1% and I've heard as much as 5% or more.

The piece of whatever it was that was pulled up out of the sea by the Japanese tested to be 96% similar to basking shark. Given, that we do not have plesiosaur DNA, what is to rule out that creature being a plesiosaur???

[Ichneumon]

And note that Spetner's claim that "mutations can't don't information" rests

Bah: Never post when you're in a hurry.

That should, of course, be "mutations don't add information".

[DittoJed2]

Genetic information is what is within the genetic material of an organism that causes it to be what it is. For example, within the genes of a dog is information that causes it to specifically be of the class, genus, and species that it is. For it to become something completely different, new genetic information would have to be added to its system. You can make it become a different variety of dog, but it is always going to be a dog. You can't introduce "cat" into it and make it become more cat-like. And you certainly don't see this kind of added information in the historical record of species. Evolution of the MACRO kind has never been observed. It is a hypothesis.

[DittoJed2]

Looks like an ugly furry dinosaur to me. By the way, the fossils don't usually come with skin (some have) so that is an artist's conception of what one might have looked like.

As for its feathers http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4142.asp

[DittoJed2]

Will read this later.

[BMCDA]

But that is new information. If it weren't you couldn't tell the cut and uncut pie appart.