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Forging a case for U.S. jobs in manufacturing
The Arizona Republic ^ | August 24, 2003 | Jon Talton

Posted on 08/24/2003 9:55:53 AM PDT by sarcasm

Edited on 05/07/2004 5:21:33 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

Does it matter if Americans make stuff?

I'm using Alan Greenspan's brushoff term for American manufacturing. He used it last month during his congressional testimony, when asked about the loss of 2.7 million jobs over the past two years, most in factories and they're likely gone for good.


(Excerpt) Read more at azcentral.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS:
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1 posted on 08/24/2003 9:55:53 AM PDT by sarcasm
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To: harpseal
ping
2 posted on 08/24/2003 9:57:10 AM PDT by sarcasm (Tancredo 2004)
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To: sarcasm
In the other corner, we have South Carolina Sen. Fritz Hollings. In his retirement speech last month, he reprised his famous skepticism about expanding trade to the detriment of American factory jobs. With harder times, he should be receiving a more careful hearing.

Hollings recalled how former Sony Chairman Akio Morita equated developing a strong manufacturing capability to becoming a nation-state. Morita "pointed and said to me about the United States: 'That world power that loses its manufacturing capacity will cease to be a world power.' "

Sheesh sars, going down to the level of printing an article from a liberal newspaper, that praises Fritz Hollings.

Yunz gloom and doomers are desperate.

Oh BTW, just a question, has Japan taken over the world yet?

3 posted on 08/24/2003 9:59:50 AM PDT by Dane
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To: sarcasm
Really scarey. Our govt is full of out of touch millionaires.
4 posted on 08/24/2003 10:00:02 AM PDT by tkathy
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To: sarcasm
"That world power that loses its manufacturing capacity will cease to be a world power."

I tend to agree.

5 posted on 08/24/2003 10:00:07 AM PDT by Cobra64 (Babes should wear Bullet Bras - www.BulletBras.net)
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To: Dane
"Free trade" is the traditional doctrine of Democrats - are you, or were you, one?
6 posted on 08/24/2003 10:05:39 AM PDT by sarcasm (Tancredo 2004)
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To: sarcasm
"Free trade" is the traditional doctrine of Democrats - are you, or were you, one?

Huh, Ronald Reagan was also a free trader.

Time for you brigadiers to get out the gifs of Reagan in tar and feathers.

7 posted on 08/24/2003 10:09:01 AM PDT by Dane
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To: Dane
As a general rule, free traitors smirk like gated community fat cats.

For your information, blue collar workers, people without college educations, have never recovered from the end of manufacturing. They have gone steadily downhill since the 70's. For them, it most definitely has been gloom and doom as they have nothing like the standard of living their parents did. Look at the cities of the Northeast, none of whom recovered from the collapse of manufacturing.

Your kind of fat cat smirking made Bush I a one term president. It will do the same for Bush II unless he gets ahead of this issue.

All his trend lines are down.
8 posted on 08/24/2003 10:12:35 AM PDT by Tokhtamish
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To: Dane
Protection has been the position of economic nationalism since the party of Lincoln, McKinley, Taft, etc.

There is nothing at all intrinsically conservative about free trade. It is entirely a question of what serves America's interests, not your globalist free-trade "citizen of the world" agenda.
9 posted on 08/24/2003 10:14:29 AM PDT by Tokhtamish
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To: Dane
I see you are avoiding answering the question.
10 posted on 08/24/2003 10:14:58 AM PDT by sarcasm (Tancredo 2004)
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To: Tokhtamish
For your information, blue collar workers, people without college educations, have never recovered from the end of manufacturing. They have gone steadily downhill since the 70's. For them, it most definitely has been gloom and doom as they have nothing like the standard of living their parents did. Look at the cities of the Northeast, none of whom recovered from the collapse of manufacturing.

Your kind of fat cat smirking made Bush I a one term president. It will do the same for Bush II unless he gets ahead of this issue

Yeah whatever, live in your doom and gloom(actually more like DU) world, with your use of the derogatory term "fatcat". Hey you are in the same camp as Tom Daschle, isn't America great, that you can just whine incessantly, while "fat cats" like me see the more positive aspects of life in America.

Go ahead, and live in perpetual negativty, that's your right.

All his trend lines are down

Whatever, put your faith in a Newsweek poll, that doesn't even include registered voters.

You are in the same camp as MSNBC and CNN.

Great company there dude.

11 posted on 08/24/2003 10:20:58 AM PDT by Dane
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To: sarcasm
I see you are avoiding answering the question.

Huh, it seems that you are avoiding the answer. The answer being that Ronald Reagan was a free trader.

And that makes you democrats hiding on FR as pseudo conservatives really pissed, since you can't hide behind him.

12 posted on 08/24/2003 10:23:51 AM PDT by Dane
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To: Dane
Reagan was wrong on "free trade". Answer the question - are you now, or have you ever been, a Democrat?
13 posted on 08/24/2003 10:27:57 AM PDT by sarcasm (Tancredo 2004)
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To: sarcasm
Morita ....said to me about the United States: 'That world power that loses its manufacturing capacity will cease to be a world power.'

Morita is right; is anyone listening?

14 posted on 08/24/2003 10:32:29 AM PDT by Mr. Mojo
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Comment #15 Removed by Moderator

To: sarcasm
I hope Greenspan is getting paid with conceptual dollars.
16 posted on 08/24/2003 10:33:22 AM PDT by Nachoman
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To: sarcasm
Reagan was wrong on "free trade". Answer the question - are you now, or have you ever been, a Democrat?

Yes, yes, SS commmandant, I vill answer the question. In the area that I live in I am a registered democrat, for local reasons, since in primaries if I were registered as a Republican, there is no choice in the primary.

This way I have a say in trying to vote for the most conservative candidate in a heavily democratic area.

BTW, when I lived in Florida and Ohio, I was registered Republican.

BTW, where are those gifs of Ronald Reagan in tar and feathers.

He was a "free traitor" and proud of it, thus your sworn enemy.

17 posted on 08/24/2003 10:35:17 AM PDT by Dane
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To: sarcasm
But how do we bolster our manufacturing sector without wrecking the world trading system?

We can't -- so let's do both.

18 posted on 08/24/2003 10:40:46 AM PDT by Mr. Mojo
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To: Dane
When you first registered were you a Democrat or a Republican?

BTW, no politician is a God - they all err in their policies. The current "free trade" mania was inaugurated by JFK - a Democrat.

19 posted on 08/24/2003 10:40:57 AM PDT by sarcasm (Tancredo 2004)
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To: clamper1797; sarcasm; BrooklynGOP; A. Pole; Zorrito; GiovannaNicoletta; Caipirabob; Paul Ross; ...
Ping on or off let me know

By the way tommorrow Monday will be a day without many pings or posts due to other commkitments.
20 posted on 08/24/2003 10:41:38 AM PDT by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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Comment #21 Removed by Moderator

To: sarcasm
The plan to start setting things right


In no particular order of importance.

1. Get rid of government subsidies for offshore investment of US companies. OPIC is the first such program which should go but support of World Bank programs that subsidize the outflow of Capital would be another.

2. Use tariffs on those nations which are engaged in unfair trade practices such as currency manipulation (China and India for example), those nations which refuse to open their markets to US products (China for example with its 50% tariffs on US consumer goods and non tariff barriers), those nations that subsidize competition to American Industry (airbus for example) and those nations which have slave conditions for their workers.

3. Use tariffs and other means to prevent the relocation of jobs offshore that are essential to the national defense. If necessary take control of the company seeking to export vital technology or industry by means of eminent domain (No I do not like this last option and I will only defend its use as an absolute last resort like say in the case of rare earth magnets essential to smart bomb technology). Provide a hardened, widely distributed infrastructure to supply all that is needed for our military units and civil defense that can be continued to be deployed in the event of any military attack.

4. An immediate end to guest worker programs. If people wish to come to the USA to work and make a life let them immigrate according to the rules.

5 Provide economic development zones where the corporate income tax is zero for operations within these zones. In order to operate in this zone a company must agree to only purchase American components if available and employ only American citizens or legal immigrants in these operations. These economic development zones shall be eventually be expanded to include every bit of every state once the benefits are shown I would like them to be totally implemented immediately but I realize4 that may be overreaching. It must be stated for clarification that simply being in the geographic area of the zones does will not subject any company to any new mandatory regulation. Everything is voluntary for getting the exclusion from corporate taxation. The profit attributable to direct imports is subject to the same rules that exist everywhere else in this nation for corporate taxation. Only free from such taxation is the profit attributable to American content and any American improvement. In short no new mandatory regulation will be a part of this. It is my opinion that there will not be a lack of companies seeking this tax relief. And no the regulation implied is absolutely minimal in order to get this through.

6. Scale back unnecessary regulation including the tort system. Institute a cap on punitive damages, limits on class action suits, and limits on liability to the actual percentage of liability with no plaintiff able to collect if said plaintiff was involved in the commission of a felony at the time of the alleged tort or was more than 49% negligent in the alleged tort. Note that the loser in a frivolous lawsuit shall pay the attorney fees of the winner. There are many other regulatory structures that also need to be included that need to be included such as repealing the Family leave mandate, getting rid of OSHA etc.

7. Increase the domestic content in purchases by the Department of defense and give absolute preference in non-domestic content to proven allies of the USA over say the French or Germans. The only reason any content for DOD purchase may come from non US allies is that content is not available elsewhere and is essential.

8. Do not allow expense involved in moving operations overseas to be included in business expenses under the IRS code.

9. Prosecute for perjury anyone who has made a false statement in order to employ an H1B or L1 visa worker. I will be lenient on the actual perjurer if he/she was ordered to make this false statement and he/she provides testimony to aid in the conviction of the person ordering the perjury. Just because a person is a CEO does not give them a pass on criminal behavior.

10. Prosecute anyone who orders the transfer of vital defense technology or funds a R&D project that could be of use to our military overseas except to strong allies of the USA. Make the necessary enhancements to our espionage laws so that continued support or funding of any R&D in a nation whose government has threatened the USA is guilty of espionage. The UK and Australia come to mind as meeting these criteria for being eligible for transfer of technology first. There will be other nations and a gradation of what can be transferred to which specific nation. Under no circumstances may technology be transferred to any nation whose government has threatened the USA within five years without a complete change of government or specific exemption from Congress and the administration.

11. Deport all illegal aliens immediately and take measures that prevent the entry of any more illegal aliens. Fine all companies knowingly employing illegal aliens Criminal sanctions should be imposed on anyone helping an illegal alien stay in the USA in violation of our laws.

12. Decrease the punishing levels of taxation on companies and eliminate the double taxation on corporate dividends. See effects of item 5 for how minimal this will be if item 5 covers the entire USA. Eliminate all IRS provisions that inhibit free use of independent contractors by businesses for example section 1706.

13. Eliminate the minimum wage so that the worker can be paid based on productivity. Overtime compensation will remain the same but instead of 150% of the "wage" the worker would receive 150% of the production pay. If one through 13 are enacted # 14 becomes an irrelevancy as no one will be working for that low a wage.

Now since I started posting this plan another idea has come up that in my opinion is a very good policy that stands on its own. Now I give credit to Jim Gibson and Freeper Ed_in_NJ for coming up with the idea, separately to the best of my knowledge. However I can be corrected on that. The tariff phrasing is from Jim Gibson.

“I suggest that the US Customs Department charge a $1,000-per-container inspection fee on every container entering the United States. This fee would be used to completely fund the cost of inspections. If we assumed that a four-man team could fully inspect two containers a day or about 500 per year, it would require 48,000 inspectors. Allowing for at least 2,000 support personnel, we would need at least 50,000 workers. Because these workers would require high intelligence and skill levels they should earn at least $30 per hour. At 40-hour weeks plus benefits, I estimate the cost per worker to be over $75,000 per year, all paid by the foreign manufacturers. Even so, this would still leave over $2.25 billion to cover all other costs. Any revenue not used would be used to compensate American workers displaced by foreign imports. “

I urge and encourage everyone who agrees with this plan and or the terror tariff idea to communicate this to every politician you can think of.

22 posted on 08/24/2003 10:44:22 AM PDT by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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Comment #23 Removed by Moderator

To: NRA2BFree
Ping
24 posted on 08/24/2003 10:46:45 AM PDT by Mr. Mojo
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Comment #25 Removed by Moderator

To: sarcasm
When you first registered were you a Democrat or a Republican?

I registered first as a Republican.

BTW, no politician is a God - they all err in their policies. The current "free trade" mania was inaugurated by JFK - a Democrat.

Huh, and Ronald Reagan followed JFK in promoting tax cuts, like GW Bush has.

Like I said before on this thread it is time for you to post the gifs of Ronald Reagan in tar and feathers by reading your rhetoric on this thread, Ronald Reagan is a traitor to you, IMO.

26 posted on 08/24/2003 10:52:04 AM PDT by Dane
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To: sarcasm; Dane
As much as I hate to admit it Hollings is right on this one. The traditional key to creating wealth is to take raw materials, add labor and sell the product. Once we have lost that capacity the only jobs left for our children will be in governmental or educational bureauocracy. But who and what will pay the taxes to support those bureauocracies?

Alan Greenspan's tightening of the Fed credit started this downward spiral in the manufacturing sector in the summer of 2000, and we're not out of it yet.

27 posted on 08/24/2003 10:53:26 AM PDT by afraidfortherepublic
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To: sarcasm
Precisely.

There is nothing in the least conservative about "free trade". It is entirely a question of the few who would prosper in a cheap labor, cheap life, cheap flesh society and the many who would not.
28 posted on 08/24/2003 10:55:16 AM PDT by Tokhtamish
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To: afraidfortherepublic
Alan Greenspan's tightening of the Fed credit started this downward spiral in the manufacturing sector in the summer of 2000, and we're not out of it yet

Huh????? Greenspan has been loosening credit. I guess the lowest interest rates in 40 years have passed you by.

BTW, have you been on Mars for the last three years, then I could understand your above italicized statement.

29 posted on 08/24/2003 10:57:10 AM PDT by Dane
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To: Dane
Ummm, you are the one using the word traitor - show me where I've used it.

I see that you're finally acknowledging that "free trade" is a traditional Democrat idea - a policy rejected by Republicans through Eisenhower. It's a disaster for the country - only pseudo-Republicans support such internationalist lunacy.

30 posted on 08/24/2003 10:59:44 AM PDT by sarcasm (Tancredo 2004)
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To: sarcasm
I see that you're finally acknowledging that "free trade" is a traditional Democrat idea - a policy rejected by Republicans through Eisenhower. It's a disaster for the country - only pseudo-Republicans support such internationalist lunacy

Huh, with your above italicized reply, you are basically stating that Ronald Reagan(a free trade proponent) was a "pseudo-Republican".

OK whatever, your animus towards Ronald Reagan has been shown for everybody to see and understand that you maybe posting from the basement of the DNC.

31 posted on 08/24/2003 11:10:34 AM PDT by Dane
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To: tru
I do appreciate the links to Jeff's Threads and Race's. I am honored to be mentioned in the acknowedgements of jeff's Books and I have had the pleasure of talking with both these Gentlemen outside of Free Republic.
32 posted on 08/24/2003 11:11:29 AM PDT by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: Dane
OK whatever, your animus towards Ronald Reagan has been shown for everybody to see and understand that you maybe posting from the basement of the DNC.

Stating that one of his policies was in error does not constitute animus. BTW, your comment about posting from the basement of the DNC is getting stale.

33 posted on 08/24/2003 11:16:11 AM PDT by sarcasm (Tancredo 2004)
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To: sarcasm
Stating that one of his policies was in error does not constitute animus. BTW, your comment about posting from the basement of the DNC is getting stale.

Stale? Sheesh your dashole/gephardt/hillary rhetoric on FR was stale long ago.

34 posted on 08/24/2003 11:19:44 AM PDT by Dane
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To: Dane
You're the self-admitted registered Democrat - perhaps you're a shill.
35 posted on 08/24/2003 11:26:53 AM PDT by sarcasm (Tancredo 2004)
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To: Dane
You need to re-read the history books.
Reagan slapped tariffs on the japs when they were dumping motorcycles here.
If not, Harley would not be around any longer.
36 posted on 08/24/2003 11:54:41 AM PDT by dtel (Texas Longhorn cattle for sale at all times. We don't rent pigs)
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To: sarcasm
A country which makes nothing IS nothing.

Greenspan is real strong on the conceptual and weak on reality. If you have no bread to eat, simply cut out a magazine photo of bread and eat that. If you have no physical job or physical paycheck, simply try to visualize those and then imagine yourself into giving your personal check to the landlord or mortgage company so they will not conceptualize you being thrown out into the street.

37 posted on 08/24/2003 12:11:20 PM PDT by NoControllingLegalAuthority
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To: Dane
You're the...  You need to..

It's always interesting how even freepers can cling to emotional positions at all costs.  We tend to forget that there've been good Democrats and bad Republicans, and it's policy not politics that matters.

In the economy it's services --not manufacturing that matters.  Services account for 60 percent of the GDP, 75 percent of employment, and 90 percent of all new jobs.  Sure, we all miss the loss of our smokestack factories but those lifestyles went the way of the old agricultural and 'hunting-and-gathering' patterns of less advanced societies.

This is an emotional issue - and when people get upset they call for big government to bail them out with high import taxes so as to redistribute our hard earned wealth to those unwilling to compete in the marketplace.

38 posted on 08/24/2003 12:25:53 PM PDT by expat_panama
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Comment #39 Removed by Moderator

To: Dane
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/959787/posts
Lawmaker predicts defeat for 'Buy American' language (Defense Department procurement update)


"But, in general, the protective system of our day is conservative, while the free trade system is destructive. It breaks up old nationalities and pushes the antagonism of the proletariat and the bourgeoisie to the extreme point. In a word, the free trade system hastens the social revolution. It is in this revolutionary sense alone, gentlemen, that I vote in favor of free trade." ~ Karl Marx, On the Question of Free Trade, January 9, 1848
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/01/09ft.htm#marx


"Communists and socialists feel sure that setting up international “free” trade systems which impose regulations chuck full of intrigues, redistribution plans, arbitrary law, and interdependence schemes, will win out against the conservative interests of every free nation. What could be better than to use “free” trade to reverse the advantage of the relatively free, moral, prosperous,
and strong nations of the Earth, so that the tyrannical, amoral, poor, and weak nations of the socialist bloc might get the upper hand? What could be a more cunning approach than to market the idea that those who oppose “free” trade are enemies of freedom?"
http://www.newsmax.com/commentarchive.shtml?a=2000/6/27/105655


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40 posted on 08/24/2003 12:52:41 PM PDT by RaceBannon
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To: dtel
You need to re-read the history books.
Reagan slapped tariffs on the japs when they were dumping motorcycles here

Huh and GW Bush did the same thing for the steel industry, but the way the rhetoric is slung around here by you doom and gloomers(covert democrats, IMO), you consider him akin to the anti-Christ.

41 posted on 08/24/2003 1:57:37 PM PDT by Dane
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Comment #42 Removed by Moderator

To: sarcasm; harpseal
The problem is that the market has become conceptual...too conceptual as far as I am concerned, as in smoke and mirrors.

On the other hand, cars, computer hardware, steel to build buildings, dams and other things with, wood for homes, fruit that we eat to feed ourselves, clothes that we wear ... all of this "stuff" is not conceptual. It is real.

43 posted on 08/24/2003 3:05:02 PM PDT by Jeff Head
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To: Willie Green; Wolfie; ex-snook; Cacophonous; Poohbah; Jhoffa_; FITZ; arete; FreedomPoster; ...
The Federal Reserve chairman said, "Well, just remember that the nature of the economy is becoming increasingly conceptual, as distinct from physical . . .

Very disapointing, one would expect more insight from the leading financist. Maybe we have what we deserve.

44 posted on 08/24/2003 3:12:31 PM PDT by A. Pole
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To: A. Pole
that the nature of the economy is becoming increasingly conceptual

I wonder if that will fly down at the back when one can't meet the mortgage.

Well, the nature of my payments are becoming increasingly conceptual...

45 posted on 08/24/2003 3:15:11 PM PDT by riri
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To: riri
back s/b bank
46 posted on 08/24/2003 3:15:37 PM PDT by riri
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To: sarcasm
Even more questionable is the notion that our economy can rest purely on "concepts."

Being a concept/banking center is not enough to support 300 million people. Even Switzerland export watches, cheese, chocolate and other material goods. If Mr. Greenspan thinks that his job can be typical he is dreaming.

47 posted on 08/24/2003 3:20:56 PM PDT by A. Pole
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To: sarcasm
How's this for a concept: "The American worker is being disassociated from the American economy."

The economy (i.e., the way the feds measure) can be 'doing great' (US companies get all their goods from overseas and sell globally) while the US worker gets lowballed out of employment.

48 posted on 08/24/2003 3:26:15 PM PDT by Ed_in_NJ
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To: Jeff Head
The problem is that the market has become conceptual...too conceptual as far as I am concerned, as in smoke and mirrors. On the other hand, cars, computer hardware, steel to build buildings, dams and other things with, wood for homes, fruit that we eat to feed ourselves, clothes that we wear ... all of this "stuff" is not conceptual. It is real.

Fed said: "let them eat the conceptual".

49 posted on 08/24/2003 3:31:20 PM PDT by A. Pole
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To: afraidfortherepublic
But who and what will pay the taxes to support those bureauocracies?

With all the jobs going overseas, taxing at the income level will mean increasingly lower levels of revenue. There has been a lot of behind the scenes work on a consumption tax. If that is implimented, we are lost, but I think that answers your question.

50 posted on 08/24/2003 3:34:23 PM PDT by William Terrell (People can exist without government but government can't exist without people)
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