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The Litmus Test for American Conservatism (The paloeconservative view of Abe Lincoln.)
Chronicles Magazine ^ | January 2001 | Donald W. Livingston

Posted on 09/06/2003 9:14:08 AM PDT by quidnunc

Abraham Lincoln is thought of by many as not only the greatest American statesman but as a great conservative. He was neither. Understanding this is a necessary condition for any genuinely American conservatism. When Lincoln took office, the American polity was regarded as a compact between sovereign states which had created a central government as their agent, hedging it in by a doctrine of enumerated powers. Since the compact between the states was voluntary, secession was considered an option by public leaders in every section of the Union during the antebellum period. Given this tradition — deeply rooted in the Declaration of Independence — a great statesman in 1860 would have negotiated a settlement with the disaffected states, even if it meant the withdrawal of some from the Union. But Lincoln refused even to accept Confederate commissioners, much less negotiate with them. Most of the Union could have been kept together. Virginia, North Carolina, Tennessee, and Arkansas voted to remain in the Union even after the Confederacy was formed; they reversed themselves only when Lincoln decided on a war of coercion. A great statesman does not seduce his people into a needless war; he keeps them out of it.

When the Soviet Union dissolved by peaceful secession, it was only 70 years old — the same age as the United States when it dissolved in 1860. Did Gorbachev fail as a statesman because he negotiated a peaceful dissolution of the U.S.S.R.? Likewise, if all states west of the Mississippi were to secede tomorrow, would we praise, as a great statesman, a president who refused to negotiate and launched total war against the civilian population merely to preserve the Union? The number of Southerners who died as a result of Lincoln’s invasion was greater than the total of all Americans killed by Hitler and Tojo. By the end of the war, nearly one half of the white male population of military age was either dead or mutilated. No country in World War II suffered casualties of that magnitude.

Not only would Lincoln not receive Confederate commissioners, he refused, for three crucial months, to call Congress. Alone, he illegally raised money, illegally raised troops, and started the war. To crush Northern opposition, he suspended the writ of habeas corpus for the duration of the war and rounded up some 20,000 political prisoners. (Mussolini arrested some 12,000 but convicted only 1,624.) When the chief justice of the Supreme Court declared the suspension blatantly unconstitutional and ordered the prisoners released, Lincoln ordered his arrest. This American Caesar shut down over 300 newspapers, arrested editors, and smashed presses. He broke up state legislatures; arrested Democratic candidates who urged an armistice; and used the military to elect Republicans (including himself, in 1864, by a margin of around 38,000 popular votes). He illegally created a “state” in West Virginia and imported a large army of foreign mercenaries. B.H. Liddell Hart traces the origin of modern total war to Lincoln’s decision to direct war against the civilian population. Sherman acknowledged that, by the rules of war taught at West Point, he was guilty of war crimes punishable by death. But who was to enforce those rules?

These actions are justified by nationalist historians as the energetic and extraordinary efforts of a great helmsman rising to the painful duty of preserving an indivisible Union. But Lincoln had inherited no such Union from the Framers. Rather, like Bismarck, he created one with a policy of blood and iron. What we call the “Civil War” was in fact America’s French Revolution, and Lincoln was the first Jacobin president. He claimed legitimacy for his actions with a “conservative” rhetoric, rooted in an historically false theory of the Constitution which held that the states had never been sovereign. The Union created the states, he said, not the states the Union. In time, this corrupt and corrupting doctrine would suck nearly every reserved power of the states into the central government. Lincoln seared into the American mind an ideological style of politics which, through a sort of alchemy, transmuted a federative “union” of states into a French revolutionary “nation” launched on an unending global mission of achieving equality. Lincoln’s corrupt constitutionalism and his ideological style of politics have, over time, led to the hollowing out of traditional American society and the obscene concentration of power in the central government that the Constitution was explicitly designed to prevent.

A genuinely American conservatism, then, must adopt the project of preserving and restoring the decentralized federative polity of the Framers rooted in state and local sovereignty. The central government has no constitutional authority to do most of what it does today. The first question posed by an authentic American conservative politics is not whether a policy is good or bad, but what agency (the states or the central government — if either) has the authority to enact it. This is the principle of subsidiarity: that as much as possible should be done by the smallest political unit.

The Democratic and Republican parties are Lincolnian parties. Neither honestly questions the limits of federal authority to do this or that. In 1861, the central government broke free from what Jefferson called “the chains of the Constitution,” and we have, consequently, inherited a fractured historical memory. There are now two Americanisms: pre-Lincolnian and post-Lincolnian. The latter is Jacobinism by other means. Only the former can lay claim to being the primordial American conservatism.

David W. Livingston is a professor of philosophy at Emory University and the author of Philosophical Melancholy and Delirium (University of Chicago Press).


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Extended News
KEYWORDS: dixie; dixielist; history; lincoln; litmustest; paleoconartists; paleocons
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Chronicles Magazine styles itself as the flagship magazine of paleoconservatism.
1 posted on 09/06/2003 9:14:09 AM PDT by quidnunc
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To: quidnunc
Interesting. I'd subscribed to Chronicles for a time in the late 80s but didn't like its tone.
2 posted on 09/06/2003 9:47:58 AM PDT by Eala (The government that robs Peter to pay Paul will always have the support of Paul.)
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To: quidnunc
When the Soviet Union dissolved by peaceful secession, it was only 70 years old — the same age as the United States when it dissolved in 1860. Did Gorbachev fail as a statesman because he negotiated a peaceful dissolution of the U.S.S.R.?

What is with the love-affair that some paleos have with Gorbo? I can understand the "no foreign entanglement" angle, but why do they cross the line into being outright apologists for the Soviet regime?

3 posted on 09/06/2003 9:52:08 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: quidnunc
In my view, Lincoln was wrong on every count except his opposition to slavery. Perhaps it's some sort of national karma that the lasting effects of the abomination of slavery are the lingering effects of an enlarged, pro-state(pun intended) attitude.

This was once a very libertarian nation consisting of loosely federated states able to act independently in most things and collectively for things like free trade and national defence. Now we are pawns of a bloated national state.

4 posted on 09/06/2003 9:55:53 AM PDT by muir_redwoods
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To: stainlessbanner; shuckmaster
ping
5 posted on 09/06/2003 9:59:32 AM PDT by Libertarianize the GOP (Ideas have consequences)
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To: quidnunc
David W. Livingston is a professor of philosophy at Emory University
6 posted on 09/06/2003 10:10:37 AM PDT by TheDon (Tick, tock, tick, tock...the sound of the clock ticking down the time until Tom drops out.)
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To: quidnunc
SPOTREP
7 posted on 09/06/2003 10:10:48 AM PDT by LiteKeeper
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To: quidnunc
I don't think anyone that reviews the period would ever describe Lincoln as a conservative. Yet the things he gets castigated for these days make as much sense as saying how evil the US is as the only nation on the face of the earth to ever use nuclear weapons. It's all utter nonsense.

Linclon had his view of "nation." He felt the US was ultimately stronger as a nation rather than unaffiliated states. He also had a vision of the US as a nation that stretched from the Atlantic to the Pacific.

I believe he also saw the "freedom" of the nation as something to extend to all citizens, although that was not his mandate when he was elected. The fact is he had no mandate when he was elected.

It's so popular these days for some conservatives to hammer Lncoln at every opportunity. What makes me curious about that is if these hammerers feel we will be a better country when the next great schism comes to pass as is the trend.

Finally, given Lincoln's vision of "Country," What could he have done differently and still bring it about. He had a Congress that seemed quite pleased to be able to blame Lincoln for all the evils in the world yet was likley collectively relieved that anyone about was willing to make some decisions about issues at all.

He had a nation, not a loggerheads, but rather, quite literally, at each others throats.

I have always thought, not that he was a conservative, but that it took a fantastic amount of character to pull it off at all. Lincoln was in a truly winless situation, yet he knew that some men must do more than just talk. I find Lincoln as good as any President and better than most.

8 posted on 09/06/2003 10:12:59 AM PDT by stevem
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To: muir_redwoods
This was once a very libertarian nation consisting of loosely federated states able to act independently in most things and collectively for things like free trade and national defence.

Ahh, another government "educated" person. If you were to read anything before the revisionists got around to changing it, you would note that the North imposed tariffs on imported factory goods, and our European trade partners responded by slapping massive tariffs on agricultural goods. This allowed the North to have high wages and even cheaper cotton and corn while the South had to pay maximum prices for machinery (which would have replaced slaves) and received minimum income for their products. Last time I checked, tariffs are anathema to Libertarianism (which is Libertarian consistancy since our country's forefathers believed that tariffs were the least immoral tax.)

Interestingly, the Libertarian ideal is sort of like the North's attitude towards the South. Impose virtual tariffs on the manufacturing and IT through massive domestic taxes, obscene regulation, and rabid tort lawyers - then eliminate tariffs on the foreigners through subsidies, tax grants, free insurance, and cheap and plentiful education to foreigners. This makes the "Takers" (Libs) the North, and the Producers the "South". The Libs laud about inexpensive goods and laugh at the "Southerners" income problems.

9 posted on 09/06/2003 10:14:10 AM PDT by Dr Warmoose
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To: stevem
What makes me curious about that is if these hammerers feel we will be a better country when the next great schism comes to pass as is the trend.

Given the increasing centralization of pwer in D.C., you think this is even possible?

10 posted on 09/06/2003 10:41:58 AM PDT by Eala (The government that robs Peter to pay Paul will always have the support of Paul.)
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To: Eala
Given the increasing centralization of pwer in D.C., you think this is even possible?

There are large parts of Florida and the Southwest that have American as a second language, and so many of those homes don't understand the language at all. While that has always been the case in some of our urban areas such as New York, San Francisco, Honolulu and others, there were numerous pressures to amalgamate the people, at least by the next generation. Now we not only forgive this "balkanazation," we subsidize it i.e. we encourage it. We put no premium on at least the next generation getting with the program.

Our older institutions are getting routed and our rebuilt institutions don't force the next generation to have a clue as to what their true rights are or why. We also belittle any affection toward "our country" as archaic, xenophobic and not chic.

For those that consider Lincoln to be a marxist of his day, I give you Olympia Snow, Jim Jeffords, Ted Kennedy and Arlen Specter. By this I mean we are getting so horribly polarized as a political body that there can be no basis for communication. I don't want any part of their vision of what this country should be.

In California we can see the catastrophe that is wrought by so many ultra liberal policies that even today politicians are loathe to decry. It can't be long before the Northeast follows in those footsteps.

Today you have a supposed conservative administration that wants to spend money growing programs so fast it would embarrass Hubert Humphrey or Richard Nixon or Lyndon Johnson, the radical liberals of the last generation.

Yes, I would say this nation could split along numerous seems, mostly caused by plans to subsidize activities that can't be economically sustained. It won't happen in the next year, or the next five, but has to eventually given trends. When it does, the separate parts will be so regionalized, and the things that really made this country great will be so expunged from our memory that there won't be anyone left to suggest an alternative.

11 posted on 09/06/2003 1:20:06 PM PDT by stevem
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To: quidnunc
This litmus test is a trick question.

Today's Republicans are Reagan's Conservative Republicans, NOT Lincoln's Radical Republicans.

12 posted on 09/06/2003 1:24:42 PM PDT by Paul C. Jesup
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David W. Livingston is a professor of philosophy at Emory University and suffers from philosophical melancholy and delirium.
13 posted on 09/06/2003 1:35:02 PM PDT by tpaine ( I'm trying to be Mr Nice Guy, but politics keep getting in me way. ArnieRino for Governator!)
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To: Paul C. Jesup
Paul C. Jesup wrote: This litmus test is a trick question. Today's Republicans are Reagan's Conservative Republicans, NOT Lincoln's Radical Republicans.

Many, if not most, of the paleocons are synpathetic to the Confederacy and believe the South's cause during the Civil War was just, so it's a given that Honest Abe occupies a place in their pantheon of horribles.

14 posted on 09/06/2003 1:37:58 PM PDT by quidnunc (Omnis Gaul delenda est)
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To: quidnunc
Actually most of them, like me, consider Sherman the real monster and Abe a close second.
15 posted on 09/06/2003 1:40:14 PM PDT by Paul C. Jesup
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To: muir_redwoods
Lincoln was a typical descendant of the Puritans who moved from New England: self-righteous and, well, puritanical. He pulled a coup de etat on our Constitution (suspension of habeous corpus, denying the right of seccession, arresting state legislators, suspending newspapers, instituting the draft, total war, & etc). He was a monster.
16 posted on 09/06/2003 1:41:42 PM PDT by sobieski
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To: Paul C. Jesup
Paul C. Jesup wrote: Actually most of them, like me, consider Sherman the real monster and Abe a close second.

Yep, Ol'Abe and Billy Sherman really showed them rebs where the bear did his business in the buckwheat, didn't they?

17 posted on 09/06/2003 1:44:30 PM PDT by quidnunc (Omnis Gaul delenda est)
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To: Poohbah; Texas_Dawg; hchutch
Paleocons singing praises of Gorbachev - I'm not surprised...
18 posted on 09/06/2003 1:46:56 PM PDT by Chancellor Palpatine (Paleocons - defined as the French generals of the political world)
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To: Dr Warmoose
You usually have such interesting and informative posts. Too bad you can't ever post without being obnoxious and condensending.
19 posted on 09/06/2003 1:47:37 PM PDT by LisaAnne
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To: Everybody
"When Lincoln took office, the American polity was regarded as a compact between sovereign states which had created a central government as their agent, hedging it in by a doctrine of enumerated powers." -- So it was alleged by the 'states rights'
extremists.


In actuality:
--- When Lincoln took office, the American constitution was regarded as a compact between the people of the various states, united together, who had created a central government as their agent, hedging both it, and their states, in by a doctrine of enumerated powers, and a bill of rights.
20 posted on 09/06/2003 1:50:02 PM PDT by tpaine ( I'm trying to be Mr Nice Guy, but politics keep getting in me way. ArnieRino for Governator!)
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To: quidnunc
Lincoln was a great defender of the soul of the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence.

That is what the Confederates rejected when they chose to break away from the United States.

They had no good reason for doing so (as the colonies did and stated so in the preamble of the Declaration), but simply did not like the results of the election.

They did not like the fact that slavery was going to be limited.

So, not liking the results of the constitutional election, they decided to leave the Union.

No different in kind then what the Democrates are doing in Texas.

Lincoln was next to Washington, our greatest President.

The socialist agenda that has arisen is not from the loss of the 'right' to secession since that right has never been lost.

The right to secede is simply the right to revolt which is the final appeal when all other appeals have failed.

The South was not being oppressed in any manner, thus had no 'right' to just leave the Union and then on top of that fire on U.S. troops!

The greatest oppression was going on in the South with slavery and it was that oppression that the South wanted to expand.

21 posted on 09/06/2003 1:52:30 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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To: quidnunc
You really should compare the number of deaths of soldiers on each side. Then you should talk.

But the way, in today's politics, Lincoln would be right at home with the tax and send liberal/socialist Democrats.

22 posted on 09/06/2003 1:56:08 PM PDT by Paul C. Jesup
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To: fortheDeclaration
Hi Walt. I like the new name.
23 posted on 09/06/2003 1:57:46 PM PDT by Paul C. Jesup
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To: quidnunc
"Paleoconservatism"?

I keep seing the term used here, anyone care to define it?
If it means someone who understands this article, and tends to agree with it, then I lguess that would include me.
If it means someone who understands and supports the constitution and unabridged bill of rights as written, rather than a"living document, subject to being re-interpeted as often as needed" then it is definately the term for me.

I was aware of these transgressions on Lincolns part, as well as many more that are "Not talked about in polite republican circles".
It is disgusting to see how badly our true history has been, and continues to be, twisted beyond all recognition by operatives of both political philosophies.

I suffer the consequences of Lincolns unconstitutional Fed. land grab as a condition of statehood for Nevada every day. He is NOT my hero or role model.
24 posted on 09/06/2003 2:00:53 PM PDT by Richard-SIA (Nuke the U.N!)
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To: quidnunc
For the record, it's called THE conservative movement.

The politics of division doesn't sell.

25 posted on 09/06/2003 2:03:14 PM PDT by ChadGore (Kakkate Koi!)
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To: Paul C. Jesup
Whose Walt?
26 posted on 09/06/2003 2:07:42 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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To: Paul C. Jesup
“Both Arabdom and the Old South are remnants of once great civilizations with flaws that doomed them to defeat. The blinder partisans of each look back with a nostalgia that clouds their vision. Their love for an imagined past that is now beyond re-creating prevents them from seizing the present, and fashioning the future. They prefer their imaginary world of slogans and fixations, though it is only imaginary, to the possibilities of a new start in reality — because reality requires compromise.” – “The Arab Tragedy: A mistake becomes a tradition”, (The Arkansas Democrat-Gazette editorial, July 18, 2000)
27 posted on 09/06/2003 2:09:50 PM PDT by quidnunc (Omnis Gaul delenda est)
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To: Everybody
A genuinely American conservatism, then, must adopt the project of preserving and restoring the decentralized federative polity of the Framers rooted in state and local sovereignty.

State & local governments are independant under our constitutional principles, not sovereign. They are bound to honor our individual rights, and to check & balance excessive federal powers. They have failed.

The central government has no constitutional authority to do most of what it does today. The first question posed by an authentic American conservative politics is not whether a policy is good or bad, but what agency (the states or the central government — if either) has the authority to enact it. This is the principle of subsidiarity: that as much as possible should be done by the smallest political unit.

Very true... Just as it is true that our central federal government is honor bound to to check & balance excessive state/local powers. They have failed.

28 posted on 09/06/2003 2:10:33 PM PDT by tpaine ( I'm trying to be Mr Nice Guy, but politics keep getting in me way. ArnieRino for Governator!)
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To: sobieski
sobieski wrote: Lincoln was a typical descendant of the Puritans who moved from New England: self-righteous and, well, puritanical. He pulled a coup de etat on our Constitution (suspension of habeous corpus, denying the right of seccession, arresting state legislators, suspending newspapers, instituting the draft, total war, & etc). He was a monster.

The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it. – The United States Constitution, Article. I., Section. 9., Clause 2

29 posted on 09/06/2003 2:18:13 PM PDT by quidnunc (Omnis Gaul delenda est)
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To: sobieski
Lincoln, the monster converted the Constitution from "A pact with Satan" in that it permitted human slavery, to a document that removed the most serious flaw in the original Constitution. The United States was already united, as shown by the use of "perpetual union" TWICE in the Articles of Confederation.

Lincoln managed to accomplish this despite the greater readiness of the southern militia (the better to be prepared for slave revolts), the treason behavior of most of the United States officer corps, and the outright treason of the former Sectetary of War Floyd. When an officer is given special trust and confidence by the congress, he can not gain release of his duty and responsibilities by sending a "never mind" letter.

Linoln was right! The southern states gained their wealth in a system where their exports were protected by the US Navy, and the western states were created by the United States. For states such as Alabama and Mississippi to assert that they had collective rights before the Constitution is only something that would pass in a KKK dominated curriculum.

What was the alternative? Two nations, then three, then 12 endlessly subdiving through war after war like in Europe? Piracy and local bandits blocking all trade like in Mexico and Tripoli?

Let us remind outselves that these are not just historical questions. The same people who endlessly drag out issues solved at the price of treasure and blood, over 140 years ago, intend to get rid of states with which they disagree, so that may not be troubled to compromise or win elections of All The People. They image that if California could be devolved to Mexico, and New York and New England could be devolved to the Socialist Canadiens, then they could have the laws and leadership they desire. If they gained their wish, then the border wars would begin.

Slavery was the essential compromise in the federalist era. Its elimination was not easy, but was a worthwhile goal, necessary to build the nation.

If for every drop of blood shed by the lash, one must be shed on the field of battle, if the treasure amassed through years of bondage were to be sunk beneath the waves, still it must be said, "the judgements of the Lord are True and Righteous altogether."
30 posted on 09/06/2003 2:47:59 PM PDT by donmeaker (Bigamy is one wife too many. So is monogamy, or is it monotony?)
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To: quidnunc
They always seem to miss that part of the Constitution, don't they? He he.

A genuinely American conservatism, then, must...

There's something about being told what I must do or what I must think in order to consider myself conservative that really gets my back up.

31 posted on 09/06/2003 2:48:06 PM PDT by metesky (("Brethren, leave us go amongst them." Rev. Capt. Samuel Johnston Clayton - Ward Bond- The Searchers)
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To: LisaAnne
You usually have such interesting and informative posts. Too bad you can't ever post without being obnoxious and condensending.

In deference to your complaint, I will work on the "condensending" tone. As for being obnoxious. I am a hopeless case.

32 posted on 09/06/2003 3:03:07 PM PDT by Dr Warmoose
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To: quidnunc
There was no "rebellion", since the South simply pulled out of the Union. This was recognized by New England in the 1830s, when they threatened secession. The North attacked the South, and the North suspended the Constitution.
33 posted on 09/06/2003 3:20:04 PM PDT by sobieski
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To: donmeaker
Lincoln did not have the right to end slavery through war. He could've used Constitutional means (buying the slaves or amending the consitution). He did not, choosing to turn the states into vassels of the Federal government. Before Lincoln, the Federal government was simply the agent of the states in certain enumerated ways: foreign trade, domestic trade, foreign affairs. Now we have the Federal cancer. We can't undo what the Tyrant did, but lovers of freedome need not lionize him.
34 posted on 09/06/2003 3:25:19 PM PDT by sobieski
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To: sobieski
Lincoln was a typical descendant of the Puritans who moved from New England: self-righteous and, well, puritanical.

Wow. You seem to know more about Abraham Lincoln, then he did. In his autobiography he claimed he knew little of his ancestry. For decades afterwards, researchers have tried in vain to find his roots. For those who claim one line, there is another group who claims another. Presently there are claims that he descended from aristocrats, and others that he came from "indistinguished" heritage.

But with boldness in your speech, you cast aside any question and blurt out something you made up because you (1) hate Lincoln, and (2) hate Christians. Two birds, one stone, no truth required!

For a man that allegedly was a "typical descendant of the Puritans", perhaps you can tell us what church he attended. (Answer: he didn't he was disgusted with organized Christianity and fancied himself a Do-it-Yourself unaffiliated "Christian") In fact, Lincoln wasn't even exposed to "church" until he was 14 when his step-mother drug him to Pigeon Creek Baptist Church. Certainly it is "typical of the Puritans" to not take their children to church until they are about ready to leave the home.

As far as adopting a work ethic that mimics the Puritans, he may have actually had one. Then again, if he didn't work, the family wouldn't eat. Unlike today, there wasn't a welfare safety net hammock that encourages sloth and punishes productivity.

As far as the "monster" part. I am in agreement. A must read book is Thomas DiLorenzo's "The Real Lincoln". That ought to be a reality check on this god-like worship of Lincoln.

35 posted on 09/06/2003 3:31:22 PM PDT by Dr Warmoose
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To: sobieski
sobieski wrote: There was no "rebellion", since the South simply pulled out of the Union. This was recognized by New England in the 1830s, when they threatened secession. The North attacked the South, and the North suspended the Constitution.

You mean the history books all have it wrong and the federal troops manning Ft. Sumter actually opened fire on the city of Charleston first?

I wasn't aware of that! < /sarcasm >

36 posted on 09/06/2003 3:31:28 PM PDT by quidnunc (Omnis Gaul delenda est)
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
Paleocons singing praises of Gorbachev - I'm not surprised...

I see your Mary Carey for Governor ping list got denied. Why does McClintock get one but Mary Carey doesn't? BS, imho.

37 posted on 09/06/2003 3:33:05 PM PDT by Texas_Dawg ("Free trade will cause the death of America's moral base." -- Tub Girl)
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To: donmeaker
If they gained their wish, then the border wars would begin.

So to avert war, it is important to instigate war.

38 posted on 09/06/2003 3:34:22 PM PDT by Dr Warmoose
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To: sobieski
Lincoln had the duty and obligation to stop rebellion. He did lead the nation to eliminate slavery by way of the 14th amendment. It was the southern plutocrats who chose rebellion, who sought to abrogate the constituion, break the union to protect their so called "property" and continue their traffic in human misery. The constitution is not a suicide pact. Not then, and not now.
39 posted on 09/06/2003 4:17:49 PM PDT by donmeaker (Bigamy is one wife too many. So is monogamy, or is it monotony?)
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To: quidnunc
Yes, I tried to convince a 5th grade teacher once that my opponent began the fight by scraping me visciously across my knuckles with his chin.

Didn't work then either.
40 posted on 09/06/2003 4:19:24 PM PDT by donmeaker (Bigamy is one wife too many. So is monogamy, or is it monotony?)
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To: stevem
"American as a second language"


Another product of government schools. The name of the language is "English".
41 posted on 09/06/2003 4:21:26 PM PDT by donmeaker (Bigamy is one wife too many. So is monogamy, or is it monotony?)
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To: Paul C. Jesup
The monster was named "Davis" and his chief henchman was named "Lee". At least Varina came to realize the error of his ways.

Grant: " Let us have peace."
42 posted on 09/06/2003 4:23:31 PM PDT by donmeaker (Bigamy is one wife too many. So is monogamy, or is it monotony?)
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Comment #43 Removed by Moderator

To: Dr Warmoose
The war was begun by the South. To avert ceaseless war, one must take resolute action to be sure that those who begin war pay a heavy price. The price was paid. The south had 4 billion "then year" dollars in chattle slavery. They began the war to protect that investment, and at the end, it was gone. Most of the slave owners were either dead, or childless. Those neo-successionists who exist are hopelessly irrelevent. Lincoln did a great job, and alas, faced with such a immoral and relentless foe, the price could be no less. An enemy who asserted his right to rape, under color of authority, helpless children, is not expected to show mercy on the battlefield, and at Ft Pillow to the crater, they did not. Linoln showed far greater mercy than the Southrons ever considered.
44 posted on 09/06/2003 4:30:53 PM PDT by donmeaker (Bigamy is one wife too many. So is monogamy, or is it monotony?)
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Comment #45 Removed by Moderator

Comment #46 Removed by Moderator

To: stevem
There are large parts of Florida and the Southwest that have American as a second language, and so many of those homes don't understand the language at all. While that has always been the case in some of our urban areas such as New York, San Francisco, Honolulu and others, there were numerous pressures to amalgamate the people, at least by the next generation. Now we not only forgive this "balkanazation," we subsidize it i.e. we encourage it. We put no premium on at least the next generation getting with the program.
Our older institutions are getting routed and our rebuilt institutions don't force the next generation to have a clue as to what their true rights are or why. We also belittle any affection toward "our country" as archaic, xenophobic and not chic.
...
Yes, I would say this nation could split along numerous seems, mostly caused by plans to subsidize activities that can't be economically sustained.

I've been mulling this over and I think you're correct. My guess is that unless current trends change, California will be first. By analogy (a poor mode of reasoning, I realize), it's quite similar to what happened to the Episcopal church, which in my lifetime was (fairly accurately) known as "The Republican Party at prayer."

The liberals got control in the 60s and started changing things. In "modernizing" the liturgy (in the process losing the very beautiful Cranmerian language -- yes it is archaic, but it's easily understood) they altered the doctrines. There were some bitter fights, and the first round of departures began.

Then it got worse. In the early 80s my rector (for whom I still retain much love and respect, though he has passed on) got a bit frosted when, as a delegate to the diocesan convention, I not only voted against supporting the Nuclear Freeze Initiative, I questioned why the church was involved in secular political issues. (I was a bit more naive then.)

Soon after I moved away and just could not associate with any of the churches here, so (making a long story short) I joined the departures as I became an Anglican. The depatures slowed to a trickle, until the recent confirmation of Vicki Gene Robinson, who divorced his wife and then became the first openly practicing queen bishop, which is roiling much of the worldwide Anglican Communion.

Soon, I suspect, they will have driven anyone who isn't extremely left-wing out. And they will own the church's extensive properties, free and clear. At least until they've run them into the ground.

Would it have been different if we'd all stayed and fought until the very last man standing? I don't know. I consider that the changes that brought about the first departures were already bitterly fought -- and lost. The liberals have a basic advantage in that there is nothing so low that they won't stoop to it in order to WIN; and most conservatives and moderates are hampered by the failure to recognize that we're engaged in a winner-take-all social war. Rudyard Kipling illustrated this in his story The Mother Hive.


Now think of California and what the liberals are doing. For individual reasons, rationally made, the more conservative are leaving. Taxation, regulation, affordability, the moral climate -- there are all sorts of reasons to leave. How many years it will take I have no idea (I'm still guessing, mind you), but it is conceivable that at some point the supporters of the Aztlan movement (or whatever it is called) to change "ownership" of California to Mexico will surpass the opposition. Certainly some of the recent actions, Motor Voter and Illegal Aliens Get Driver's Licenses, move things in that direction. And America's Left will support the give-away.

47 posted on 09/06/2003 5:12:37 PM PDT by Eala (La Garde meurt, mais ne se rend pas. And then there are the Senate Republicans...)
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To: donmeaker
The monster was named "Davis" and his chief henchman was named "Lee". At least Varina came to realize the error of his ways.

People like you are so funny. You completely ignore the actions and war crimes of those you idolize.

Davis was a politican, nuff said. But Lee was the absolute embodiment of the statement, "An Officer and a Gentleman".

If you look at the documents of the officers on both sides of that war and you will note that 90% of them, including Grant, agree with my statement.

Grant: " Let us have peace."

You must mean 'peace of the grave', because when Grant was finished with the South, he turn his attention to the West and committed GENOCIDE against the native americans.

48 posted on 09/06/2003 5:49:23 PM PDT by Paul C. Jesup
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To: quidnunc
The fact the you compare the South to Islam only shows how truly ignorant you truly are.
49 posted on 09/06/2003 5:51:25 PM PDT by Paul C. Jesup
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To: fortheDeclaration
Whose Walt?

Whiskey Papa, a person so anti-southern that it is funny.

50 posted on 09/06/2003 5:52:12 PM PDT by Paul C. Jesup
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