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Passion Misplay: Yes, Jews probably really did kill Jesus.
Slate ^ | September 17, 2003 | Steven Waldman

Posted on 09/17/2003 5:49:56 PM PDT by Lurking Libertarian

You probably won't find many Jews conceding the point that, biblically speaking, Jewish leaders were complicit in the death of Jesus. In fact, given the history of this topic—with the Christ-killer charge having helped provide the justification and fuel for European anti-Semitism—it's no surprise that it is nearly impossible to have a constructive interfaith conversation about the Crucifixion.

This is already evident in the reaction to Mel Gibson's new movie, The Passion. Not due out until next year, it's so far stirred up much emotion but disappointingly little productive discussion. One example: Abraham Foxman, the National Director of the Anti-Defamation League, criticized the film because it "unambiguously portrays Jewish authorities and the Jewish mob as the ones responsible for the decision to crucify Jesus."

The problem with the tone of his statement is that, as best we can tell, Jews did kill Jesus. Or, more precisely, according to the four Gospels of the New Testament, Jews prodded the Romans into doing it. Mr. Foxman might as well have said that The Passion "unambiguously portrays Jewish authorities and the Jewish mob just like the Bible does."

In the interest of disrupting the already-off-on-the-wrong-foot public discussion of Gibson's movie—and with curiosity about whether I can alienate both my Christian and Jewish relatives in one article—I propose the following:

1) Jews should admit that some of their forefathers probably helped get Jesus killed. The four Gospels say Jewish priests demanded Jesus' crucifixion. For me, the most interesting account is the Gospel of Mark. Scholars now believe that the Gospels of Matthew and Luke, and possibly John, were based in part on Mark or on the same source that Mark used. Mark's Gospel is thought to have been written before the others, circa A.D. 70,* and, perhaps because it was written within a generation after Jesus' death, is widely considered freer of ahistorical embellishments. Yet Mark clearly says:

But the chief priests stirred up the crowd to have him release for them Barab'bas instead.

And Pilate again said to them, "Then what shall I do with the man whom you call the King of the Jews?"

And they cried out again, "Crucify him."

And Pilate said to them, "Why, what evil has he done?" But they shouted all the more, "Crucify him." Chapter 15: 11-15

In Luke, Matthew, and John, Jewish leaders look even worse.

To say that films should not be made depicting an important Jewish role in the death of Jesus is to say that films should not be made based on the Bible. The idea that influential Jews wanted Jesus killed is not a distortion of Christianity; it is, for better or worse, an accurate depiction of the New Testament.

What's more, one of the only non-biblical discussions of Jesus' life, from the Jewish historian Josephus, also indicates that at least some important Jewish authorities wanted Jesus convicted. In Jewish Antiquities, he writes that Pilate condemned Jesus "upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing amongst us."

2) There is a strong possibility that the Bible itself, in effect, distorted the history of the "Jewish" role. In other words, the argument from Mel Gibson and his defenders that his movie can't possibly be insensitive because it is based on the Bible ignores the probability that the New Testament itself may have offered inaccurate history.

This is, of course, a sensitive topic, too. For those who believe the Bible was not only inspired, but also fact-checked by God, the document is simply true. The debates of Bible scholars are just noise to them.

But the evidence is compelling that the New Testament either gave "the Jews" a bum rap or, at minimum, was written in a way that left it highly susceptible to misuse. If, as most scholars believe, Mark is the source for Matthew and Luke, the authors of those later Gospels sure seemed to add a lot of new, incriminating detail mysteriously missing from Mark, fueling the notion of Jews as Christ-killers.

Matthew adds the chilling line from the Jewish mob, "His blood be on us and on our children!" But perhaps the most distressing addition to the Mark account is found in John. It is the single word "the." John shifts from talking about specific Jewish leaders and individual people to using the broad term: "the Jews." He uses this formulation repeatedly and devastatingly. Did he mean to implicate the race of Jews?

It depends on what the meaning of the word "the" is.

Some scholars argue that he was merely using a shorthand for a specific group of priests and didn't intend to implicate Jews as a group. Not likely, argues the late Rev. Raymond Brown, a respected right-of-center scholar who has defended the Passion narratives. He writes that John's vituperative anti-Judaism likely flowed not so much from the events of the Crucifixion—i.e., what actually happened to Jesus—but rather from what happened to Jesus' followers in the subsequent decade. The first Christians were persecuted, harassed, and questioned by the synagogue authorities, leading to bitterness on the part of Gospel writers. John really was "anti-Jewish in a qualified sense," Brown writes in An Introduction to the Gospel of John. "Uncomfortable as that may make modern readers because of the horrible history of anti-Jewish persecution in subsequent centuries, it is what John meant."

In arguing that the biblical accounts shouldn't be taken as history, liberal scholar John Dominic Crossan focuses on details found in Luke, Matthew, and John that are not found in the source document, Mark.

Watch what happens to that Markan source as the story progresses through the later Gospels. Matthew 27:15-26 first copies Mark's 'the crowd' but then enlarges it to 'the crowds' and finally to 'all the people.' Luke 23:13-15 changes Mark to 'the chief priests, the leaders, and the people.' Finally, John 18:37-40 speaks simply of 'the Jews.' Recall, of course, that those expansions do not represent independent knowledge but dependent development. 'The crowd,' in other words, grows exponentially before our eyes.

The Jewish leaders of the time may not have had entirely clean hands, but, at least in terms of historical accuracy, neither did the writers of the Gospels.

It's totally understandable that the Gospels' authors might have spun the narrative in certain ways. They were defending themselves against a two-front attack: Jewish authorities on one side and Roman authorities on the other. It would have been impossible for them to conceive of Christianity one day as the official religion of the Roman Empire—let alone imagining that their indictment of a particular group of Jews would be used to justify persecution of Jews as a race. Perhaps the writer of Matthew, were he alive today, would be appalled that his line about blood being "on us and on our children" could lead to anti-Semitism. But it did.

Frankly, Christians who don't understand Jews' sensitivity to the misuse of Passion narratives are being a bit dense. And while I haven't seen Gibson's movie, some of the comments from his supporters have sure smelled rotten. This is not, after all, ancient history. It wasn't until 1965—not 1465!—that the Catholic Church officially got around to declaring that the entire Jewish race shouldn't be held guilty of deicide. Jews can be forgiven if they have trouble keeping down their popcorn while watching Passion plays.

3) Christians who remain bitter about the Jewish role in Jesus' death are being transparently un-Christian. And I don't mean merely in the sense that Jesus taught forgiveness, or that it's not nice to promote genocide, no matter how angry you might be. Rather, my evangelical friends are always reminding me that non-believers (and liberal Protestants) miss the point of Christianity by focusing on only Jesus' moral teachings, as if he were just a really dynamic ethics professor. The point, or at least one of the main points, of the religion is that Jesus died for humanity's sins. The symbol of the religion is the cross, not a Good Samaritan icon, because the Crucifixion and subsequent resurrection were what proved his divinity and redeemed humankind. Most Christians believe that many of Christianity's blessings flow from the fact that he was crucified.

I recognize that just because the story had a theological happy ending doesn't mean that the Crucifixion was anything other than horrific. (Jews probably should not go around saying, "Yeah we killed Jesus—and you're welcome.") And there is an enormous amount of debate within Christianity about the meaning of Jesus' death—many modern scholars disagree with the emphasis on the Passion and Resurrection. For a lot of Christians, the answer to the question "Who killed Jesus?" is "God did"—or "we all did," the abundance of sinful human behavior having made his sacrifice necessary.

The complexity of that debate notwithstanding, it is clear that the Crucifixion and Resurrection are central to the faith. While the Crucifixion in itself wasn't a good thing, it was, according to much Christian doctrine, an entirely necessary and pre-ordained thing. Without it, Christianity as we know it wouldn't exist.

So, really the answer to the question "Who killed Jesus?" should be: Who cares? Theologically, the answer is irrelevant, which means Christians can stop blaming Jews and Jews can stop being defensive. And people of both faiths can get back to disagreeing about more important things like whether you get more presents at Hanukkah or Christmas.


TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: catholic; gibson; melgibson; movie; passion; thepassion
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1 posted on 09/17/2003 5:49:56 PM PDT by Lurking Libertarian
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To: Lurking Libertarian
What a waste of space and words.
2 posted on 09/17/2003 5:55:26 PM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: Lurking Libertarian
Abraham Foxman, National Director of the Anti-Defamation League, is the sort of fellow who really would like to be known, uncritically, as a major Jewish authority, and if the opportunity presented itself, he would undoubtedly lead a Jewish (or any other) mob in order to crucify Jesus over and over.

It's kind of like the Adolph Eichmann syndrome ~ he once supposedly said "If there were no Jews I would never be mistaken for one" ~ whereupon he undertook to kill a lot of Jews.

For guys like Director Foxman, if there were no Jesus, and no Gospels about him, then, he, Director Foxman, would no longer have his authority as a Jewish leader challenged by something smacking of Christianity.

It's not only lonely at the top, being a professional bigot has just got to be lonelier.

3 posted on 09/17/2003 5:59:25 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Lurking Libertarian
And while I haven't seen Gibson's movie, some of the comments from his supporters have sure smelled rotten.

Good heavens, what a painful sentence! "I am ignorant and opinionated" would have been shorter. And more accurate.

4 posted on 09/17/2003 6:02:59 PM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: Lurking Libertarian
They also orchestrated the World Trade Center attack;)
5 posted on 09/17/2003 6:03:30 PM PDT by yooper
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To: muawiyah
"Who killed Jesus?"....Who cares?

Agreed. Why some Christians still feel this is something to care about is beyond me. Besides, if the Jews didn't kill Jesus, there would've been no Resurrection and thus, no Christianity. These Christians need to get over it and accept the fact that it was a necessary event of ANCIENT history that is the basis of the Christian faith. But I'm sure they won't, as those types of Christians are more consumed with hatred than the love that Jesus himself preached. I mean, even Christ himself asked God to forgive his killers because they knew not what they were doing.
6 posted on 09/17/2003 6:04:13 PM PDT by Blzbba
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To: Blzbba
That doesn't get Abe Foxman off the hook however. Besides that, Abe's not a Christian.

Your argument that antimonianism is the only true path is a bit narrow and sectarian. You really ought to get over that "Jesus was merely a goody-two-shoes" stuff and notice that He rose after death. That kind of makes His death, who killed Him, why, when and so forth rather secondary.

7 posted on 09/17/2003 6:13:30 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Blzbba
Christians aren't the ones raising objections to the Gospels' descriptions of the Crucifixion as being at the hands of the Jews.
8 posted on 09/17/2003 6:14:42 PM PDT by Cacophonous
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To: Lurking Libertarian
PROBABLY?
9 posted on 09/17/2003 6:20:01 PM PDT by TheBattman (Did I really need a sarcasm tag?)
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To: Lurking Libertarian
In other words, the argument from Mel Gibson and his defenders that his movie can't possibly be insensitive because it is based on the Bible ignores the probability that the New Testament itself may have offered inaccurate history. ... But the evidence is compelling that the New Testament either gave "the Jews" a bum rap or, at minimum, was written in a way that left it highly susceptible to misuse.

Look, all well and good to point out the Abe Foxman problem - that he is mad at the Gospels and taking it out on Gibson. But this little article isn't a compromise position. It is exactly the same error, with the single exception that is calls for a different remedy.

If we're going to be a truly tolerant society, have the courage of the beginning of the article. Say that Gibson is making a movie based on the Gospels. He believes they're true. What the heck is wrong with that?

The historians set up in opposition have almost no actual "evidence" whatsoever. The "evidence" cited in the article is opinion and conjecture from secular historians working without sources supporting them.

10 posted on 09/17/2003 6:23:01 PM PDT by Snuffington
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To: Blzbba
Agreed. Why some Christians still feel this is something to care about is beyond me

Because if it's not true, neither are the Gospels.

11 posted on 09/17/2003 6:24:55 PM PDT by Snuffington
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Comment #12 Removed by Moderator

To: Lurking Libertarian
If, as most scholars believe, Mark is the source for Matthew and Luke, the authors of those later Gospels sure seemed to add a lot of new, incriminating detail mysteriously missing from Mark, fueling the notion of Jews as Christ-killers.

This statement is at best inaccurate and at worst a complete mischaracterization.

First, Mark may have been a source from Luke but it was not the source. To say that "most scholars" believe Mark is the source is just plain wrong.

Second, we can go an see what Luke wrote about his sources. He opens his Gospel (a letter to a man name Theophilus) with this:

Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things that have been accomplished among us, just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word have delivered them to us, it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, that you may have certainty concernings the things you have been taught.

Clearly, Luke did not base his account soley on Mark.

Third, Luke also wrote the book of Acts and was a colleague of Paul. Looking at Acts, it is very clear that Luke was a diligent researcher. It is unlikely that he would rely on a single document.

Fourth, just to clarify the timing, the scholars I am familiar with put the writing of Luke somewhere in the early 60's AD with the writing of Acts, his second letter to Theophilus around 62 to 64 AD. One piece of evidence for this timing is that Paul was martyred in Rome in 66AD and Luke, as a colleague of Paul, does not mention it in Acts. Mark and Matthew are both placed in the 50's or 60's.

One other thing. The author of the piece above focuses on the event of Jesus before Pilate. However, he ignores the many other places in the Gospels (as well as Acts - e.g. Stephes speech in Acts 7) where the Jewish leaders seek to or accused of seeking to kill Jesus. They are many and are not hard to find if you look.

13 posted on 09/17/2003 6:27:54 PM PDT by Pete
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To: muawiyah
"Theologically, the answer is irrelevant, which means Christians can stop blaming Jews and Jews can stop being defensive."

'Can't we all just get along-ism'. No one is right and no one is wrong.
14 posted on 09/17/2003 6:28:24 PM PDT by At _War_With_Liberals (Concerned about globalism? read http://toogoodreports.com/spotlight/110100-td.htm)
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To: Lurking Libertarian
The bottom line is this: the attack on Gibson's "Passion" is really an attack on the Gospels.
15 posted on 09/17/2003 6:31:12 PM PDT by Thorin
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To: Lurking Libertarian
As memory has it, Mort Saul's uncle once took him aside and admitted: "Yes, we did it."
16 posted on 09/17/2003 6:34:33 PM PDT by per loin
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To: Thorin
It's less than that. It's an attack from the same old perpetually pissed, offended and outraged crowd that always protests Christians and conservatives. The Jewish wing of this crowd practices its own brand of anti-Christian bigotry, masking it in Jewish outrage.
17 posted on 09/17/2003 6:36:35 PM PDT by Cacophonous
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To: Lurking Libertarian
"So, really the answer to the question "Who killed Jesus?" should be: Who cares?"

Those of us seeking the truth certainly care about answering this question.

The significant issue has always revolved around the question of the power and authority of the Sanhedrin. Unfortunately, very few source documents remain from that time period touching on this topic. The power of the Sanhedrin in convicting Jesus as described in the New Testament is at odds with later descriptions of the workings of the Sanhedrin as given in the Mishnah and the Talmud, and thus is one of the big points that has never been settled.
18 posted on 09/17/2003 6:37:31 PM PDT by JohnSmithee
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To: Pete
One does not have to only refer to the "Gospels" as to the who, what, why, where, the Old Testement foretells of the event.

Psalms 22 gives the story, that was Written well before the event.
19 posted on 09/17/2003 6:39:15 PM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: Just mythoughts
"What a waste of space and words. "

I have no stomach for this fight and don't wish it on mine or anyone else's kids.

20 posted on 09/17/2003 6:44:55 PM PDT by billorites (freepo ergo sum)
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To: Lurking Libertarian
Psalms 22 gives a vivide depiction of His Crucifixion many years before He came. He came to die. That was His mission. No death means no remission of sins (the sheeding of His Blood) and no Resurrection. No Resurrection means no Salvation. No Salvation means no hope.

Who killed Him? Well, He is not dead. He sits at the right hand of the Father. And thank God that He did die, and rise again.


21 posted on 09/17/2003 6:46:17 PM PDT by rdb3 (Which is more powerful: The story or the warrior?)
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To: JohnSmithee
The significant issue has always revolved around the question of the power and authority of the Sanhedrin. Unfortunately, very few source documents remain from that time period touching on this topic. The power of the Sanhedrin in convicting Jesus as described in the New Testament is at odds with later descriptions of the workings of the Sanhedrin as given in the Mishnah and the Talmud, and thus is one of the big points that has never been settled.

I will simply say that given the timing of the writing of Luke, many people would have still been alive who had witnessed the events. Think of it in these terms: If he wrote it today, it would be like writing about something that happened in the 1970's. He was writing to Theophilus, likely his benefactor. It would seem to make sense that he would be very careful to get his facts straight given the many living persons who could (and would have been happy) to refute him.

I should also admit here that I am sorely lacking in my familiarity with the Mishnah and the Talmud. However, your post has spurred my curiosity to look into the issue you mentioned.

22 posted on 09/17/2003 6:52:09 PM PDT by Pete
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To: rdb3
Psalms 22 gives a vivide depiction of His Crucifixion many years before He came. He came to die.

In Mark 15:34, Jesus cries out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?". Of course, that is the first line of Psalm 22. He was quoting scripture right to the end.

23 posted on 09/17/2003 6:56:25 PM PDT by Pete
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To: billorites
The truth shall set us "FREE" as it is WRITTEN. I am getting really tire of some who think that Christians have no standing, when it is the "FREE" nations that follow Christ that have been blessed.

Now this nation was founded upon the WORD and there is none like it in history and since I am thankful for those blessings I have no problem in standing up for the reason that this nation has been blessed and been a blessing to the rest of the unbelievers.

We are told what the battle is and what is necessary to "FIGHT" the firey darts of the devil.

24 posted on 09/17/2003 6:58:05 PM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: Pete
In Mark 15:34, Jesus cries out, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?". Of course, that is the first line of Psalm 22.

Yep. Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? Even on the Cross He quoted the Scriptures.

As Matthew 5:18 states, "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."


25 posted on 09/17/2003 7:01:49 PM PDT by rdb3 (Which is more powerful: The story or the warrior?)
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To: rdb3
Let's not leave out what is Written in Hebrews 2:14

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same: that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
26 posted on 09/17/2003 7:03:10 PM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: Cacophonous
I basically agree: the attack on the Gibson's film and the Gospels is an example of anti-Christian sentiment.

The likelihood of rampaging crowds running from the cineplex to torch the nearest synagogue after seeing Gibson's film is close to zero. Given that fact, the amount of attention the ADL and its allies have devoted to this issue tells us a lot more about what they dislike (traditional Christianity) than anything else.

27 posted on 09/17/2003 7:10:07 PM PDT by Thorin
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To: Just mythoughts
I'm distressed with all the Mel-bashing that's going on. For instance, on one of the entertainment Yahoo lists I'm on, a Russell Crowe interview was posted, where Russell was laughing at Mel's idea and wondering what Mel was smoking. That's demeaning, for one entertainer to belittle the dream project of another.
28 posted on 09/17/2003 7:13:11 PM PDT by Ciexyz
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To: Blzbba
You missed the point.

You said,"These Christians need to get over it and accept the fact that it was a necessary event of ANCIENT history that is the basis of the Christian faith. But I'm sure they won't, as those types of Christians are more consumed with hatred than the love that Jesus himself preached".

Which people are those?

29 posted on 09/17/2003 7:15:42 PM PDT by perfect stranger (No tagline today. Tagline yesterday, tagline tomorrow, but no tagline today.)
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To: Thorin
The only ones whipping up a frenzy are the ADL.
30 posted on 09/17/2003 7:15:46 PM PDT by Cacophonous
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To: Just mythoughts
Amen.
31 posted on 09/17/2003 7:17:55 PM PDT by rdb3 (Which is more powerful: The story or the warrior?)
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To: Lurking Libertarian
The point I'd make is they were ALL Jews: Jesus, the disciples, the Sanhedrin, the crowds chanting for Barbaras, the crowds who followed Jesus. The preponderence of Gentiles in the Christian church didn't get started until long after the ministries of Paul kicked it off. So, it's like saying the Americans killed Kennedy. Well, yeah, Oswald was an American, but so was Kennedy. Also, Jesus's life as a man was a verification of all of Jewish prophecy. Again, JEWISH prophecy. You can't take the Jew out of Jesus. Jesus still rules as a Jew. And most of the early Christian church itself was Jewish. The Romans saw the early church as just another Jewish sect.
32 posted on 09/17/2003 7:24:36 PM PDT by Alas Babylon!
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To: Ciexyz
The whole theme of trashing Christians, mocking, like we are told would be has spilled over in to the political, like giving sodomy a civil right and removing of "Ten Commandments" and the Pledge.

The U.S. Senate has now joined in and some refuse to allow Christians to become sitting judges.

Ignorance is bliss for those who are, but when it is because of the foundation that this nation was framed becomes the target then we as "Christians" can no longer sit and stay silent.

It is time to send a message and the best way to do that is to start voting out those who are anti-Christian.
33 posted on 09/17/2003 7:25:14 PM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: Lurking Libertarian
Man, go figure. The Jews hung God on a cross and Arafat is still alive and kick'n.
34 posted on 09/17/2003 7:25:54 PM PDT by Air Assault (Got Jesus?)
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To: Alas Babylon!
The point I'd make is they were ALL Jews: Jesus, the disciples, the Sanhedrin, the crowds chanting for Barbaras, the crowds who followed Jesus. The preponderence of Gentiles in the Christian church didn't get started until long after the ministries of Paul kicked it off. So, it's like saying the Americans killed Kennedy. Well, yeah, Oswald was an American, but so was Kennedy. Also, Jesus's life as a man was a verification of all of Jewish prophecy. Again, JEWISH prophecy. You can't take the Jew out of Jesus. Jesus still rules as a Jew. And most of the early Christian church itself was Jewish. The Romans saw the early church as just another Jewish sect.

Well said.

35 posted on 09/17/2003 7:25:58 PM PDT by Bohemund
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To: Bohemund
(s) perhaps it was an anti-carpenter conspiracy. (/s)
36 posted on 09/17/2003 7:33:14 PM PDT by longtermmemmory (Vote!)
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To: Alas Babylon!
You can't take the Jew out of Jesus.

Sure can't. John 4:22 tells us that salvation is of the Jews. There's no getting away from it.


37 posted on 09/17/2003 7:35:34 PM PDT by rdb3 (Which is more powerful: The story or the warrior?)
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To: rdb3
so the pope is jewish?
38 posted on 09/17/2003 7:37:28 PM PDT by longtermmemmory (Vote!)
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To: Alas Babylon!
JEWISH Prophecy?

Now since the birth all the way through the death and resurrection was foretold in the Old, then doesn't that make it Christian Prophecy?





39 posted on 09/17/2003 7:41:27 PM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: longtermmemmory
so the pope is jewish?

No, the Pope is not Jewish.

But I don't understand your question. Why do you ask?


40 posted on 09/17/2003 7:41:53 PM PDT by rdb3 (Which is more powerful: The story or the warrior?)
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To: NYer
`
41 posted on 09/17/2003 9:32:26 PM PDT by Coleus (Only half the patients who go into an abortion clinic come out alive.)
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To: muawiyah
That kind of makes His death, who killed Him, why, when and so forth rather secondary.

Please reread my post. That was exactly my point.
42 posted on 09/18/2003 5:38:41 AM PDT by Blzbba
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To: Cacophonous
Christians aren't the ones raising objections to the Gospels' descriptions of the Crucifixion as being at the hands of the Jews.

No Jew alive today had anything to do with the Crucifixtion.
43 posted on 09/18/2003 5:39:43 AM PDT by Blzbba
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To: perfect stranger
Which people are those?

The ones still trying to blame Jews today for a Crucifixtion that occurred 2000 years ago. It's worse than the whole slavery reparation issue.
44 posted on 09/18/2003 5:41:33 AM PDT by Blzbba
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To: Blzbba
So, exactly, what is your point? This is an historical movie. No one is blaming any living Jew today for their ancestors part in fulfilling Christs' mission. Get over it, it is history. As much as there are people that love to re-write history, it does not change facts.
45 posted on 09/18/2003 5:52:20 AM PDT by freeangel (freeangel)
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To: freeangel
no argument, re:changing history. But the whole "Jews killed Jesus" bitch has been used to persecute those folks long after the fact. Note: I have zero problems with the making of this movie and don't feel it should be edited. I just wish some people could view things as parts of history, instead of current-day fact. This goes to both the Jews criticizing this movie and the Christians who'll hate Jews as a result of seeing this flick.


"Get over it" indeed.
46 posted on 09/18/2003 6:25:45 AM PDT by Blzbba
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To: Lurking Libertarian
Passion Misplay: Yes, Jews probably really did kill Jesus.

D'OH!

Seeing that He was a Jew.
In the land of the Jews.
An activist...

47 posted on 09/18/2003 6:38:08 AM PDT by Publius6961 (californians are as dumb as a sack of rocks.)
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To: Snuffington
Actually, the "evidence" presented in the article is just the sort of "evidence" (aligned with logical reasoning) that makes a good case.

For example, the "evidence" shows that there is a tendency in the Gospel tradition to implicate the Jewish population more and more broadly for the demand for Jesus' death as you read from Mark to Matthew/Luke and then John. Furthermore, the writer shows that the 1st century Jewish historian Josephus is an independent source for the same thing, namely, that in the original situation, the push for Jesus' execution was led by the priestly class that was closely in league with the Roman occupiers.

So, my point is that this writer lays out that "evidence." What he says there reflects the mainstream approach of NT scholars towards the New Testament. If you do not agree with his "evidence" and reasoning and conclusions, then the onus is on you to make the best case for your position, in light of all the "evidence."

It is far too easy to dismiss another's argument by saying that it is only "conjecture." Well, of course, yes it is--conjecture based on reasonable assessment of the evidence and drawing logical conclusions from it.

48 posted on 09/18/2003 6:39:00 AM PDT by Remole
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To: Pete
Just to adopt the voicepiece of the above author for a moment:

1. OK, I should have siad "a" source. And maybe (see the book by Marion Soards) Luke does use 2 sources for his account of the Passion--Mark and another. That still does not alter the author's main point, that the Gospel tradition gives evidence of a tendency to implicate more and more Jews for the demand for Jesus' death: in Mark, just the leadership of the temple precincts; but in Luke and Matthew and then John, virtually the entire population.

2. The author's point still stands, mutatis mutandis, even if one adopts the low chronology of the Gospels and Acts that you propose.

3. And your final point agrees with me: even if the lynching of Stephen is historically accurate, it still shows that such actions were propelled not by the whole population of Judea but by the temple authorities.

49 posted on 09/18/2003 6:44:53 AM PDT by Remole
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To: Cacophonous
The only ones whipping up a frenzy are the ADL.

Abe Foxman Please Shut Up!

50 posted on 09/18/2003 6:45:01 AM PDT by Alouette (The bombing begins in five minutes.)
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