Johnson had JFK Killed: new book

John Gibson Show ^ | 9/22/03 | Ed in NJ

[Ed_in_NJ]

Sorry to be so short on facts, but a new book ("Blood Money") charges LBJ with ordering the JFK hit.

The author is the former business partner of the man he accuses of setting it up (??? Clark), and claims there is no doubt in his mind as to the truth of the allegation.

Apparently LBJ was about to be indicted on another murder charge, and saw his ascendency to POTUS as his way out.

[tpaine]

Correct terminology must be used.
'Odd pull' is not correct.
The scope was mounted the only way it could be.
You must use a zero based time line. 'Messed up' articles must not be believed.
You have your orders

[leadpenny]

Hmm, maybe we could charge his family

How 'bout we all just pour a bottle of Pearl beer on his grave (after it's been run through our kidneys, of course)?

[u-89]

Thanks for the additional info. I'm too young to have been following the news at that time and my natural aversion for JFK and LBJ has kept me from reading in depth about either though I have been meaning to read Caro's volumes on Johnson. Do you know if he covers the Wallace murder? BTW I know exactly how you feel about Foster.

[Ed_in_NJ]

Sounds like the book is worth a read.

[Ed_in_NJ]

Seems that she had a lot of company. Even tho I was 'around' back then, guess I didn't realize just how many people felt that strongly/negatively about him.

[strela]

Even tho I was 'around' back then, guess I didn't realize just how many people felt that strongly/negatively about him.

Its funny - I always thought it was just her too. But, "Landslide Lyndon" has been trashed by too many people I respect to feel any different.

[boris]

"For those of you who don't know, Laz just gave us the unedited DVD version of "JFK," with the additional 20 minutes of "Back . . . and to the left" restored."

Where?

--Boris

[boris]

BTW, it has always been my view that LBJ had it done; contracted out to the Mafia.

The Men Who Killed Kennedy pretty much clinched it for me. Motive, opportunity, means: all point to LBJ.

--Boris
P.S. And yes, there was another shooter on the grassy knoll; several lines of evidence show this conclusively. The Mystery Changing Coffin and the vanishing autopsy reports...too much, man.

--Boris

[Ed_in_NJ]

Which of the JFK assassination theory books would you say made the BEST case for whichever theory it was promoting?

[Ff--150]

About ten years ago an anchor man had received a 16mm color film of the motorcade with a fuzzy view of the famous window where Oswald supposedly fired.

Yes, it was fuzzy, but it appeared there were two men in white shirts moving around up there as the motorcade turned in front of the building.

The anchor man was giddy with this legacy and was going to rush the film to Washington D.C. the next morning--and soon as he got the results we would get an immediate update on that incredible finding. He's still around, but have heard nothing more about that film.

Also, I was ten at the time and I remember looking at LOOK or Life magazine, and remember a photo taken from the Schoolbook Depository on the third or fourth floor just after the assassination, and two young black men were yelling to the photographer pointing to the grassy knoll. Also, the grassy knoll is where most of the reporters and police headed after the shots were fired.

[Oztrich Boy]

Oh the old "telescopic sight was not aligned" which is always trotted out without asking "by how much?"

At the the range Oswald was shooting at the bullet would have hit just 3-4" to the right and above the aim point.

Easily compensated for if Oswald knew about it.

In fact because of the direction the Kennedy car was moving, the easiest way of compensating would be to allow *no* compensation, just aim where you wanted the bullet to hit without leading the target.

And if Oswald didn't know about it and attempted to lead while aiming at the base of Kennedy's skull, an accurate bullet would strike in exactly the position of the final head shot.

[LS]

It's a joke from Dennis Miller.

[WilliamofCarmichael]

I don't recall ever reading any of the books. I lived the events of the era. I saw the Kennedy-LBJ liberals take advantage of the assassination. Gun laws. Gun laws and more gun laws. The left broadcast the message everyday for months: conservative criticism of JFK caused Oswald to assassinate the president -- stop the conservatives from having a voice (enter the "Fairness Doctrine" and the beginning of the end of conservative talk radio of the day).

I just know what I think of LBJ and what I know he is capable of. I repeat. There are not enough pejorative words in the dictionary to describe that pure evil SOB. I've long believed his body should be dug up and burned. We was Rasputin's evil twin.

I'll just add: Americans would be wise to carefully watch any descendants of LBJ no matter how distant.

I ain't referring only to how he betrayed the troops.

[WilliamofCarmichael]

Barr McClellan's book has fingerprint proof that LBJ hit man Malcolm E. "Mac" Wallace was in that room. Certainly one of the boxes in the room had the only print that could not be identified at the time.

On a hunch in the late 1990s the mystery print was compared to Wallace and I believe the book reveals that it was an unquestionable match. Wallace died in a car wreck 30 years ago. He is known to have been convicted of one murder in the early 1950s and it's pretty well established that he murdered at least fifteen or so more. Mostly on orders from LBJ and other associates it's alleged.

[Ichneumon]

Which of the JFK assassination theory books would you say made the BEST case for whichever theory it was promoting?

"Case Closed", by the extremely thorough investigative reporter Gerald Posner. Besides gathering astounding amounts of information from available sources, Posner did a lot of original investigation into the issue, talked to officials familiar with the contents of the (then) unreleased files, and even located and interviewed the KGB official who had been responsible for Oswald during his defection to the USSR. "Case Closed" is also the single most comprehensive compilation of evidence about the assissation available in book form. Whenever someone has an obscure question about the assassination or Oswald, I can find the answer in "Case Closed" 99 times out of 100.

For the most part Posner simply presents the mountain of evidence and lets the reader draw the obvious conclusions, but at the end he states his own view based on the evidence, and after reading the book it seems hard to disagree: Oswald shot JFK, from the sixth floor of the Schoolbook Depository, without a Vast Government Conspiracy(tm) behind him.

[Ichneumon]

He was one hellova shootist though and fast too. In his talented hands a single shot rifle became an automatic weapon.

Hardly.

The first shot occurs at near frame 160 of the Zapruder film, the second shot at frame 223 or 224, and the final shot at frame 313.

That means that after the first shot, there was a 3.5 second pause before the second shot. And the gap between the the second and third shots was 4.9 seconds, making a total time of 8.4 seconds. This is hardly a rate of fire of an "automatic weapon", and is easily achievable with a bolt-action rifle like Oswald's.

In fact, despite the claims of countless conspiracy theorists that "no one" has been able to duplicate the shooting that would have been required, in fact numerous recreations have had no problem whatsoever doing so. For example, CBS reconstructed the shooting for a 1975 documentary. Eleven volunteers took three shots each at a moving target using a Carcano rifle, without even doing any prior practice on that model of rifle. Their times ranges from 4.1 seconds (total) to slightly more than 6 seconds, with the average being 5.6 seconds and 2 hits out of 3. Furthermore, the House Select Committee in 1977 did a reconstruction and found that their test shooter could hit all targets with 1.66 seconds between shots.

[Ichneumon]

How long will it be before the government makes the documents related to the Kennedy assassination unclassified?

Is "eleven years ago" soon enough for you? The President John F. Kennedy Assassination Records Collection Act of 1992 (Public Law 102-526) ordered the review and release of pretty much all such records.

For example, if you want to see the 113 records released by the NSA under this act, see NSA JFK documents.

Summaries of the material can be found at the National Archives JFK Assassination Records webpage. The released material consists of more than 4.5 million pages of assassination-related records, photographs, motion pictures, sound recordings and artifacts.

The movie "JFK" by Oliver Stone was a giant load of conspiracy-theory propaganda, but it did serve on useful purpose: The public interest in the JFK assassination it raised, and the stink it made about the remaining unreleased records, lit a fire under Congress and they moved to release the records in 1992.

If you're wondering why you haven't heard of this, it's because the conspiracy theorists seldom talk about it, since the truckload of newly released material *still* fails to support their conspiracy fantasies.

As one satirical "newspaper" wrote in their classic "headline" for November 22, 1963, ridiculing the proliferation of wildly varying conspiracy theories, "KENNEDY SLAIN BY CIA, MAFIA, CASTRO, LBJ, TEAMSTERS, FREEMASONS: President Shot 129 Times From 43 Different Angles".

So what Amazing Revelations were revealed in these documents that the Grand Government Conspiracy had been "hiding" all these years? Nothing, really, which was a great disappointment for those who believed that the Real Story was somehow being concealed in them.

[Ff--150]

Thanks for reminding me of Wallace and the unknown palm print, was it? That film I mentioned showed two men in that infamous window. IMO, neither seemed to be shooting.

I also remember back then a man in a photo standing on the train trestle with a rifle by his side, as the president sped below him to Parkland. Looked odd to a ten-year-old.

[Snardius]

So what Amazing Revelations were revealed in these documents that the Grand Government Conspiracy had been "hiding" all these years? Nothing, really, which was a great disappointment for those who believed that the Real Story was somehow being concealed in them.

No reasonable person, after reviewing the evidence presented by those who attempt to explain what happened, can come to the conclusions they did. Forensics don't lie.

[Leatherneck_MT]

Steve, Lee didn't shoot anyone that day. I THINK (not sure but I'm checking) that parafin tests were performed on him the day he was arrested. If I'm not mistaken these tests indicated he hadn't even fired a weapon.

Furthermore in my Professional Opinion, there is NO way that Lee could have done the shooting. He was not capable of it. His scores on a KD course in the Marine Corps were marginal at best. That was on a course where the Distances are Known, he is in what we call a Tight Sling position shooting on a flat trajectory at a stationary target.

But the Powers that be (not sure who) wants us to believe that this marginal shooter took a notoriously inaccurate bolt action rifle and performed an assassination with world class precision in under 6.8 seconds at a moving target from 6 floors above his victim.

I was a Primary Marksmanship Instructor in the Marines. I taught these kids how to shoot. I was damn good at my job (Still am, I teach kids how to shoot where I live). I was also a Sniper in the Marines. This kind of shooting takes a level of skill that Lee Oswald did not possess.

I think Lee was a part of it. But he was not the shooter.

[O Neill]

Correct terminology must be used. 'Odd pull' is not correct.

Thanks for your gentle reminder that my understanding of Arlen Specter's Special Theory of Magic Bulletivity is not all it should be to contribute much here to the existing body of Carcano knowledge.

However, I hope to conduct some chain-yanking experiments this Fall which hold much promise of adding substantially to the clarity and vigor of humanity's state-of-the-art concepts regarding the Odd-Pull Phenomenon....

I also hope to perfect a new pasta dish called 'Fettucine Oswaldo', in which the 'Odd Pull' technique would prove helpful in drawing the succulent, slippery strands into the mouth...

[blackie]

My brother told that to me yesterday during a phone conversation. :)

[Ed_in_NJ]

Thanks.

[Shooter 2.5]

Since you're the one that inserted "an odd trigger pull" into the thread, all I did was ask a simple question.

If you can't explain it, perhaps you should refrain from repeating it.

Most of us here would like to see facts and not urban legends.

[Shooter 2.5]

Well, my son did say the Marines can't shoot like they used to. That's a shame.

It looks like all that spray and pray auto fire has taken it's toll.

[Cooter]

"The Critic" is still aired late-nights on Comedy Central.

[demlosers]

FYI, I don't know oneway or the other if there was an assassination conspiracy, but I do keep an open mind on the subject.

[tpaine]

Correct terminology must be used.
'Odd pull' is not correct.
-tpaine-


Thanks for your gentle reminder that my understanding of Arlen Specter's Special Theory of Magic Bulletivity is not all it should be to contribute much here to the existing body of Carcano knowledge.
-O Niell-

As we can see, not only have you been chastised severely for using "odd" terminology, but at #116, posted by Ichneumon, the case has been closed..

No further mentions of magic bullets will be allowed, as they cannot be accounted for in the case closed mind..

You must obey...

[Ichneumon]

No further mentions of magic bullets will be allowed, as they cannot be accounted for in the case closed mind..

You are invited to explain what you imagine would have to have been "magic" about shot #2. Note: If you're wise, you won't use the terms "pristine" or "right-angle turn", as both are incredibly easy to debunk and will only make you look foolishly unaware of the facts you're attempting to opine about. Go for it.

[tpaine]

No further mentions of magic bullets will be allowed, as they cannot be accounted for in the case closed mind..

You are invited to explain what you imagine would have to have been "magic" about shot #2.

Post your evidence that shot #2 was the bullet that went through JFK & Connelly, then was found at Parkland.. - Virtually undamaged. -- Go for it.

Note: If you're wise, you won't use the terms "pristine" or "right-angle turn", as both are incredibly easy to debunk and will only make you look foolishly unaware of the facts you're attempting to opine about.

Your dogmatic bit about the terms "pristine" or "right-angle turn" only make you look foolish..

Go for it.

Your turn.

[F.J. Mitchell]

I'll have to see that before I'll believe it.

[Tares]

Back at you: http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/content.htm

[Shooter 2.5]

Here we go again.

Do you notice there aren't any twist, turns, bends, right angles and loop the loops to that shot?

[Leatherneck_MT]

One of the biggest problems that we faced as a Corps of Marines was a gradual degradation of Civilian proficiencies with Firearms. Prior to and during WWII most young americans that joined the Army or Marine Corps grew up with rifles in their hands. They knew how to shoot and were comfortable with weapons. Since that time the raw material we have had to work with has gotten worse and worse. That being said I will still put any Marine Marksman up against ANY other Military Man in the world and our Marine will outshoot him 3 to 1.

We still teach proper marksmanship in the Corps and our boys do learn it and learn it well.

[The KG9 Kid]

"... But the Powers that be (not sure who) wants us to believe that this marginal shooter took a notoriously inaccurate bolt action rifle and performed an assassination with world class precision in under 6.8 seconds at a moving target from 6 floors above his victim."

Stop quoting gobbledygook lifted directly from Oliver Stone's 'JFK'.

It wasn't a difficult shot, Oswald was a competent shooter, the Mannlicher-Carcano is a better than average rifle with a powerful flat-shooting cartridge, and the time was longer than 6.8 seconds.

[Shooter 2.5]

Let's try that again.

Hit a head and shoulders target at 88 yards or less.
Reload, fire, reload, fire in 8.4 seconds.
Miss two out of three times.

[tpaine]

Can you post convincing evidence that shot #2 was the bullet that went through JFK & Connelly, then was found at Parkland.. - Virtually undamaged?

The Warren Commission could not, and the Oswald as lone gunman theory fell apart.

[The KG9 Kid]

I believe that Oswald did have help in an earlier attempted assasination of a US Army general with his same rifle after reading that story on another site, so I believe that it's possible he had some sort of assistance in Dallas.

Oswald was the man who killed President Kennedy in Dallas that day, though.

[tpaine]

Oswald was the man who killed President Kennedy in Dallas that day, though.
-KG9-

It's very possible that Oswald was the man who killed President Kennedy in Dallas that day, with assistance.

[Leatherneck_MT]

Oswald was not a competent shooter, and I'm not quoting anything from the JFK movie simply because I haven't seen the thing.

If I quoted something that was in the movie it's completely by accident.

The Manlicher Carcano is an innacurate piece of crap. Anyone who has ever fired that weapon can tell you that.

Oswald couldn't hit a stationary target at 200 Meters with an extremely accurate weapon (The M14). There's no way in hell that he's going to hit a moving target 6 floors below him on the 1st, 2nd, 3rd or any other shot unless he's using a MK19 40MM Grenade launcher that he can then use the impact of the rounds to walk it into his target.

If you wish to believe the Fairy Tale that the Warren Commission fostered on this country then be my guest, it's well within your rights. But don't tell me that Oswald made that shot. He didn't, it was almost mathematically impossible for him to do the shooting based on his level of skill.

and if you are getting upset by my posts maybe you should skip over them. Your angst is showing

[Leatherneck_MT]

Yep and one of them hit the president and Connally causing 7 wounds. The Magic bullet then appears on a stretcher in Parkland in almost perfect condition.

I believe in Elves too

[HapaxLegamenon]

Was your father on airforce one when Johnson took the oath of office? otherwise he was lying. It was not on TV, there is no movie or film clip. There is one photo, which was published in the papers.

[HapaxLegamenon]

2 cars back

[AmusedBystander]

but a new book ("Blood Money") charges LBJ with ordering the JFK hit.

You don't suppose that the author needs a reason to make money from book sales do you? I mean, like there haven't already been a zillion books out blaming everybody but Lee Oswald for the hit. (Read Posner's book, at least he stuck to the facts.)

[Tares]

The Magic bullet...

The Single Bullet Theory

[Ichneumon]

It wasn't a difficult shot, Oswald was a competent shooter, the Mannlicher-Carcano is a better than average rifle with a powerful flat-shooting cartridge, and the time was longer than 6.8 seconds.

And he missed on the first shot, and the second should would likely have been non-fatal.

I'm still trying to figure out where the "world class precision" comes in.

Plus while the target was "moving", it wasn't moving very fast, and it was moving almost directly away from Oswald, making it almost motionless in the scope -- a far easier proposition than a target which is moving laterally. Finally, after the first two shots, the driver of the limo foolishly *slowed down* to assess the situation, which made Oswald's final (and fatal) shot even easier. Big mistake.

[Shooter 2.5]

What seven wounds are you writing about? Are you still getting information from "JFK?

Where do you get the idea the second bullet was "almost perfect condition"?

[The KG9 Kid]

The Mannlicher-Carcano has a nice smooth Mannlicher action, and a very good single-stage trigger. Oswald's rifle also had a cheap but decent telescope. It's not an inaccurate weapon, though in the assasination it provided a five-inch group at 88 yards.

Oswald qualified as a 'Sharpshooter' in USMC boot and later got a pizza box. That's perfectly within the expectations of the shots made at Dealey Plaza.

What's so mathematically impossible about a five-inch group at 88 yards from a middle-of-the-road USMC vet, Mister Sniper?

[Leatherneck_MT]

Good grief have you EVER read the Warren Commission?

7 wounds, 2 to Kennedy 5 to Connally

Entry and exit wound on Kennedy = 2

Total = 2

Connally
Entry wound back shoulder 1
exit wound under nipple 1
entry wounnd Right wrist 1
exit wound right wrist 1
entry wound (final) inside left thigh 1

Total = 5


In my calculations that is 7 wounds, it IS the theory that Arlen Spectre put forward to the Warren Commission, AND the theory that they accepted. If you do NOT accept the theory of 7 wounds being caused by one bullet (Like any intelligent individual), then you have to, by definition agree that there was another shooter and thus a conspiracy.

The Bullet that the WARREN COMMISSION presented as Evidence is what is commonly referred to as the Magic Bullet. If you have not read the accounts and the evidence maybe you should. It doesn't appear to me that you have.

NONE of this information came from JFK, ALL of it came from the Warren Commission's own report. Read it