Area Professor Breaks New Ground On Maya

San Antonio Express ^ | 9-28-2003 | Roger Croteau

[blam]

"Bog mummies are found in Europe. Not Egypt AFAIK."

Sorry, misread your statement.

None-the-less, the world's oldest Bog People are found in Florida.

Bye, Bye Beringia (8,000 Year Old Site In Florida)

"*Skeletal remains of 169 people, split almost evenly between males and females, ranging from 6 to 70 years old. About 75 of the skeletons were relatively intact.

*90 intact human brains that include the oldest DNA samples in the World.
*Artifacts of wood, bone, and seed that were made into jewelry and tools, providing insight into the ancient peoples' lives.
*Tests showed the oldest skeletons were buried 8,100 years ago. The youngest was placed in the ground 6,900 years ago.
"To put this into context," Doran said, "these people had already been dead for 3,000 or 4,000 years before the first stones were laid for the Egyptian pyramids!"

The world's oldest mummy is/was found in Nevada.

Spirit Cave Man 9,400 years old

[Wiseghy]

Yes. However, word is that they were not as blood thristy as the later, more northerly Aztecs.

[VeniVidiVici]

"These groups possibly influenced the Maya or made it possible for them to create their civilization before they were absorbed or replaced by Maya groups

LOL! I suppose the old Mayans couldn't have maybe just KILLED THEM??

"...absorbed or replaced by Maya." Good Lord.

[Harmless Teddy Bear]

Sorry, misread your statement.

Don't ya hate it when you do that? :)

I was hoping something new and exciting had been found. Ah well.

The ones found in Florida are certainly interesting. Thanks for the links!

[Harmless Teddy Bear]

LOL! I suppose the old Mayans couldn't have maybe just KILLED THEM??

Possible but not likely. Wars to deliberately wipe a people out are rather rare. Dead they were worthless, alive, as slaves they were quite valuable.

[VeniVidiVici]

Dead they were worthless, alive, as slaves they were quite valuable.

Ok, so that can be the "absorbed" part of this. Where would the "replaced" come in? Maybe the Mayans rented a U-Haul and helped them move to Belize. ;-)

[S0122017]

sumerians sacrificed humans? Well show me evidence.

[Harmless Teddy Bear]

Here you go.

Click here.

[Harmless Teddy Bear]

Maybe the Mayans rented a U-Haul....

Well they couldn't use Ryder's, they had no horses! :)

Actually the taking of slaves would have been the replaced part. The absorbed would have been more like the Roman conquest of Italy where the conquered were treated as client states and then becoming more and more Romanized over time.

In fact Rome is a good example to use because they absorbed (the other city states of Italy) replaced (The Greeks) and destroyed (Carthage)

[S0122017]

Well maybe the Sumerians conducted human sacrifice,
but the Egyptians did so aswell http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0504/feature7/

[S0122017]

http://www.ancient-egypt.org/index.html

[Calvin Locke]

a bulldozer doing road work in the area hit a pyramid, destroying half of it.

Oh yeah, sounds like it rivaled the great pyramids of Egypt.

Not that this side of the world, especially the Mayans, didn't construct some pretty big and significant pyramids, but really now...

[blam]

"Oh yeah, sounds like it rivaled the great pyramids of Egypt."

"Not that this side of the world, especially the Mayans, didn't construct some pretty big and significant pyramids, but really now..."

The oldest pyramid in the world is in Greece, the second oldest is in Peru and the largest is in Mexico.

There are more pyramids in Mexico that all the rest of the world combined.

Voyages Of The Pyramid Builders

From Publishers Weekly

"The great pyramids of Egypt provide a wonderful glimpse of the artistry, skill and imagination of the ancient world. But pyramids can be found in India, China, Peru, Bolivia, Mexico and Ireland. In this provocative book, geologist Schoch (noted for his work in redating the Sphinx, which was recounted in his Voices of the Rocks) wonders how so many diverse cultures built such similar structures with similar purposes. Using geological, linguistic and geographical evidence, he contends that a protocivilization of pyramid-building peoples was driven out of its homeland, the Sundaland, which geologists believe connected Southeast Asia with Indonesia, by a rise in sea level caused by comet activity between 6000 and 4000 B.C. Fleeing their homeland, these peoples took their knowledge of pyramid building with them into Sumeria, Mesopotamia, Egypt, China and Peru. Schoch hypothesizes that the pyramids were built to reach into the skies and to penetrate the mystery of the heavens, source of catastrophe. Schoch also asserts that the pyramids point to unity and symbolize the deep concerns shared by all humans. Schoch builds his engrossing case on geological details of the pyramid sites he has examined around the world. In the end, however, even he admits his evidence of a Sundaland protocivilization is speculative. As controversial as this book is bound to be, Schoch's evocation of the pyramids forcefully reminds us of their enduring power as monuments to the spirit of human creativity. "

[blam]

Sundaland

[Harmless Teddy Bear]

Wow! Compelling evidence indeed. < /sarc>

Could be. Might have. Speculate.

You did see those words in there didn't you? This is very new speculative ground here.

On the other hand the fact that the Sumerian's engaged in human sacrifice has been know for well over 100 years and repeatedly validated.

[S0122017]

There is evidence that the Egyptians did it aswell, the doubt is only whether it occured in ALL periods.

Besides, for many cultures there is few evidence. It's not like we found documentarys or something. Most of the cases there is not even drawings. Just a skeleton with something weird about it.

[S0122017]

- Human Sacrifice - When examining human sacrifice, the three following practices should be distinguished:

The ritual killing of human beings as part of the offerings presented to the gods on a regular basis, or on special occasions.

Retainer sacrifice, or the killing of domestic servants to bury them along with their master. The killing of convicted criminals or enemies of the country. Although criminals and enemies of the country may have been killed in a ritualised manner, this practice cannot be considered as real human sacrifice. It is therefore not discussed here. The ritual sacrifice of humans

There is some evidence that suggests that human sacrifice was practised during the Predynastic Period and at the beginning of the 1st Dynasty.

The earliest known example of human sacrifice may perhaps be found in Predynastic burials in the south of Egypt, dated to the Naqada II Period. One of the discovered bodies showed marks of the throat having been cut before decapitation took place.

A fragmentary label from the reign of the Horus Aha found at Abydos, and a label dated to the time of Aha's successor, Djer, found at Saqqara, may bear witness to a ritual involving the killing of a human being. In both cases a kneeling figure sticks a long weapon into the chest of a bound victim sitting in front of him. A bowl between the assailant and his victim may have been intended to catch the latter's blood as he bleeds to death. Also present in both cases is some kind of fence-like sign, drawn above the sacrificial scene.

On the label fragment from Aha, a figure of authority, identified by his long stick, observes the killing. Behind the victim, a fetish, that at least in later periods was associated with Anubis, is represented. It is not known if this fetish may have been related to the practice of human sacrifice.



A fragmentary label from the time of the Horus Aha holds the oldest piece of evidence of human sacrifice in Ancient Egypt.

The context of representation on Djer's label involves ritual objects being presented to the name of the king. The killing of a human being appears to be part of the ritual, which would exclude the possibility that we are witnessing the ritual killing of a prisoner. The purpose of the entire ritual and its connection with human sacrifice are, however, unknown.



A label from the reign of the Horus Djer also shows the killing of a human being in a seemingly ritual context (top row, to the right).

There is no evidence for this kind of human sacrifice after the reign of Djer, so it is likely that this practice may have been abandoned during the early 1st Dynasty.

Retainer sacrifice

At the royal cemetery of Umm el-Qa'ab, the tombs of the 1st Dynasty kings from Aha to Qa'a are accompanied by subsidiary burials. These burials are arranged in rows or blocks either extending from the royal tomb, as was the case with Aha, or surrounding it. The position of the subsidiary tombs compared to the royal tomb is believed to reflect the relationship of their occupants to the king during life.

Several tombs were found to contain skeletal remains. The analysis of some remains found in the subsidiary graves of Aha's tomb has shown that none of the individuals buried there was older than 25 years. This suggests that each of them may have been chosen to be buried along with the king.

From the time of Djet onwards, the owners of the subsidiary tombs would often be identified. Exceptionally, their name was painted in red ink on the south wall of their grave, but mostly it would be inscribed on a small stela that was placed in the tomb. This identification sometimes included a title. Thus we learn that a "royal sealbearer" was buried adjacent to Qa'a.

The most elaborate stela, also found in a grave next to Qa'a's burial chamber, belonged to a man named Sabef. On the stela, he is represented standing and holding a long stick, the usual posture of a high official . From his titulary, we see that he was 'Keeper of the Tomb' of Qa'a and of the palace. He was also a priest and 'Keeper of the Secrets and Decrees', a confident of the king.

Some of the people in the tombs next to their king were thus not nameless, anonymous people but individuals with a very distinct relationship to the king. At least a number of them were high officials.

The superstructure covering the tombs of Semerkhet and Qa'a also appears to have covered the subsidiary burials. At least in this case it is obvious that the subsidiary burials occurred at the latest at the same time as the royal burial. This can either mean that all of the subsidiary burials predated the royal burial, or that they occurred at the same time. In the latter case, the tomb of Semerkhet would be the earliest known hard evidence of retainer sacrifice.

In view of the evidence presented here, it is not unlikely that, excluding Narmer, all kings of 1st Dynasty chose members of their household and staff, to be buried with them. It is, however, somewhat surprising that some of them held high offices during their lives.

The way they were put to death is not clear, as no trace of a violent death appears to have been found on their skeletal remains. At least it is certain that, contrary to some popular belief, they were not buried alive.

The burial of servants along with their master was abandoned at the beginning of the 2nd Dynasty, when a new royal cemetery, at Saqqara, was preferred to the one at Umm el-Qa'ab. The practice itself may perhaps have survived in a more symbolic way, when, during the Old Kingdom, statues representing working people and servants were placed in tombs.

SOURCE: http://www.ancient-egypt.org/index.html Click A-Z , H , Human Sacrifice

[S0122017]

I'd almost forget:

The Sumerians may have had "human sacrifice", but that depends on your definition. There it no evidence that is wasnt voluntarily. There is evidence for people dying in groups, after drinking poison, which may very well have been some sort of mass suicide or euthanasia for people that didnt want to live anymore.
There is no evidence that they killed themselves for the "gods", only that they killed themselves.


The Egyptian drawing I posted however shows a man getting stabbed to death with a bowl to catch the blood and an idol standing next to him.

Which of these scenarios sounds more likely to be human sacrifice?

[SunkenCiv]

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