First of, this isn’t a recipe’ for pudding, this is the integredy of scripture that you questioned in your first post to me. So let us take a look at your contentions from that post:it.
Now let's read again what John sees occurring during the "fifth seal". Revelation 6: 9 - 11 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried out with a loud voice saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. There is plenty evidence, which we will note shortly, to show that these verses are not to be taken literally. The representation is symbolical. First, the ones who were slain were the ones mentioned during the previous "fourth seal".
Revelation 6:8 "...power was given....to kill with the sword...hunger..".
Actually, if you are going to do this, you probably should have started with the 4th seal, so let’s try again, shall we?
7) When the Lamb broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, "Come."
8) I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.
9)When the lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10) and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long O Lord holy and true, will you refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11) And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they weere told that they should rest for a little while longer until the number of their fellow servants and their brethern who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.
i find your next statement to be particularly interesting:
Anyone who has studied Bible prophecy is well aware that each of these seals encompasses periods of up to several hundred years.
On the contrary, I can point out students and scholars of biblical prophecy who would assert that the prophecies in Revelation were completed approximately 70 AD with the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. Looking at all of the evidence, I can make a case for the events in question as happening in the 14th Century, being a student of that period in European History. There are yet others who maintain that this is a time yet to come. On what basis should I accept your interpretation of the time frame?
For example, the persecutions represented under the 4th seal includes the period of the Crusades, Holy Inquisitions, St. Batholomew massacre, until the late 18th century. Over 150 million Bible following Christians from God's true church died due to religious persecution.
Only until the 18th Century? How about the Chruch in China destroyed by the Maoists in the late 1940’s - early 1950’s? How about the genocide against Christians presently going on in East Timor and Rahwanda? How about the present persecution of Christians in Nigeria, and the Middle East?
I could speak about this for days. If you want more on this subject, I'll send you books of information, but let's get back to the subject.
Um, no thank you, I have probably read similar material over the decades, some of it interesting, some of it compelling, some of it rediculous, some of it just plain heretical. While I can’t determine the character of whatever material you possess, I can tell you that "it ain’t bible!", and it is not profitable when trying to determine what any particular passage actually says. It introduces an a-priori bias into exegesis, and
If these souls who had been slain are in heaven under an alter, their persecutors are most certainly dead by the time of the 5th seal. So why would the dead martyrs be asking for vengance on someone who is dead and whom they can see burning in the fires of hell? What greater vengeance could God possibly take? It doesn't logically make sense that this entire representation is to be taken literally in heaven.
Since when is Logic, or what appears to be logic, the criteria used to determine what actually happened? The rebellion of Lucifer and 1/3 of the host of Heaven was not logical, neither was the fall of man in the garden, unless one wishes to rationalise that away by one criteria or another. Note that you’re also assuming, A-PRIORI that you have a correct interpretation of the passage, and arguing against that passage from the assumption. Specifically what indication do you have from the text alone that the persecuters are dead by the time of the fifth seal, aside from the UNSUBSTANTIATED presupposition that the time period is over several centuries?
Also the only altar mentioned in the heavenly sanctuary is the altar of incense. Never does the scripture say that dead bodies were to be placed near that altar during any part of the sanctuary service. The altar of Incense was never used in this way.
Relevant only if dead bodies are what ‘soul’ refers to. Again, this is a matter of reading an assumption into the text rather than reading the text. Again, who said that this is the altar of Incense? It is simply described as an Altar, without specific reference.
The only altar in the earthly sanctuary service that had dead animal sacrifices next to it was the sacrificial altar. And there are certainly no sacrifices taking place in heaven.Thus there is no reason to believe that this vision takes place in heaven but on earth.
The only problem that I see with this evaluation is that it directly contradicts the text, specifically, the first two verses of Chapter four. Aside from that, the Christian Church did not participate in the Jewish Temple system in Gentile congregations. The Temple was in Jerusalem. I see no evidence from this text that the ones who are calling out during the fifth seal events are the same ones who die by sword, famine, and pestilence in the events of the fourth seal. Perhaps some of them are, but you cannot account for the entire number that way. The passage is silent on the subject. Regretabbly I must conclude that the interpretation you espouse above has been read into the text from a source besides the text.
Something else is pretty clear however:
CONTEXT:
This is a narrative. John is describing what he saw, and what he heard. Evidence from the text follows:
9) I, John your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
10) I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet,
11) saying, "write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches:...
19) "Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.
After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things."
This section is a narrative, we can trust that John saw what he saw, and heard what he heard.
Now to your most recent:
I've provided you with over 50 Biblical verses to substantiate my point of view. How many have you provided?i’m sorry, I wasn’t aware that this was a matter of "popular vote." How many times does God have to say something for it to be true? ~Trick question~ He doesn’t have to say it at all, it’s either true or it’s not.
You show me a passage that says that a "soul is immortal" and goes to heaven or hell at the moment of death and I'll definitely consider it. i already presented one to you, and you’ve attempted to rationalise it away, by attempting to prove that the verse is not literal. Why should I believe that you would not attempt to do so with others?
Also, I've provided you with several reasons supporting my point of view on Rev. 6 and how many have you provided?
i’m still trying to determine what your point of view is on the immortality of the soul, what you mean by soul, and why you think it would be otherwise. Calvin is explicit in Institutes, all you’ve done is attempt to rebut based on who knows what. Why don’t you present a detailed statement of what you believe on this matter, and stop attempting to spam us with verses that may or may not in their context support your view, nobody has time to read through all of that and provide a response. It would slow the forum down far too much, and most of us have lives to live away from the monitor, as you probably do. The question remains: Are you an anniallationist, Nhilist, or Atheist? Just be out front with us is all that we ask.
However, it seems, noting from your response, that the Biblical truth offends you.
No, little offends me, what disturbs me is the idea that somebody comes into these discussion presuming to have some sort of "truth" that the True Church has somehow missed for two Millenia. We deal with all kinds of "Trolls" (the term used) on this forum, pretending to be something that they are not, usually to ridicule, but often to promote an agenda that the church somehow missed, or got wrong. You’ll meet some of them soon enough.
Is name calling the only defense you can provide? It's very obvious that it's gotten too hot for you in the kitchen. Your vocabulary (Labels of course man-made) is not impressive either. I'll pray for you "dark" lord. If you can't supply Biblical passages (hopefully you can find more than one or two),to support your position that there exist an "immortal soul", then please don't respond.
You think this is name calling! Wait until you’ve been around a while. Actually it was a question, what are you? I am not at all interested in your evaluation of my tag line, I don’t know you, and your opinion, moral or otherwise means nothing to me. That dog won’t hunt. Keep in mind though, Dark Lord is another poster, it would not do to confuse him with me, he probably would not appreciate it. If you need a quick way to avoid that typing, just use CDL, people on this forum will know who you refer to.
So why don’t you just be up front, and tell us just what you believe, and provide evidence for it that doesn’t take up pages and pages to respond to (you can post more than one time to a comment you know). Do that and we can talk, do it not and I will not waste my time.
i can assure you that I don’t need you or anyone else to build a "reputation" was I interested in doing so, so don’t flatter yourself.