Virgin Mother of God

Companion to the Summa ^ | 1950 | Walter Farrell, O.P.

[irishtenor]

If the church is at variance with what is IN BLACK AND WHITE IN THE BIBLE, the church is wrong, dead wrong.

[Romulus]

You are confusing intercessory prayer with the prayer of worship. The Church does not worship Mary or the saints. Never. We pray to them to request their aid in prayer -- exactly the same way FReepers post the prayer request threads we've all seen.

The bible nowhere says that we may not ask other believers to add their prayers to ours.

"I beseech you, therefore, brethren, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and by the charity of the Holy Ghost, that you help me in your prayers for me to God" (Rom., xv, 30)

"I give thanks to my God in every remembrance of you, always in all my prayers making supplication for you all" (Phil., i, 3, 4)

"And the angel of the Lord answered, and said: O Lord of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem . . . and the Lord answered the angel . . . good words, comfortable words" (Zach., i, 12, 13)

"And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel" (Apoc., viii, 3, 4).

"He shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live. . . . And when Abraham prayed, God healed Abimelech" (Gen., xx, 7, 17).

"Go to my servant Job, and offer for yourselves a holocaust; and my servant Job shall pray for you: his face I will accept" (Job, xlii, 8).

"Call now if there be any that will answer thee, and turn to some of the saints' (Job v, 1);" If there shall be an angel speaking for him . . . He shall have mercy on him, and shall say: Deliver him, that he may not go down to corruption" (xxxiii, 23).

"I was the mediator and stood between the Lord and you" (Deut., v, 5; cf. Gal., iii, 19, 20).

And don't shout. It's rude.

[Romulus]

If the church is at variance with what is IN BLACK AND WHITE IN THE BIBLE, the church is wrong, dead wrong.

Does Christ give you authority to say this? Why should I hear you? How do I know you're a reliable interpreter?

[Romulus]

scripture comes from God, through the Holy Spirit,

How do you know that?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

scripture comes from God, through the Holy Spirit,

How do you know that?

This argument really hacks me off. In a nice way ofcourse:)

Romulus, I know you are Catholic. I know that Catholics believe that scripture comes from God. That men inspired by the HS wrote it down. But you believe that because your church tells you that is so..?? I and others of my belief believe it because the bible tells us it is so.

So your question is misleading. It should be more why is your source of proof better then mine. I find it really odd when someone askes a question like you did when you believe what you are questioning.

Becky

[Romulus]

But you believe that because your church tells you that is so..??

Absolutely! If I believe the Christ and the Holy Spirit are alive in the Church and have been from the beginning, how could I reject the decided conclusions of the universal Church?

I and others of my belief believe it because the bible tells us it is so.

The Koran claims as much for itself. What aren't you a muslim?

[Gamecock]

***If it does, it becomes radically self-sufficient and self-justifying, without respect to anything external. It becomes radically perfect. It becomes God. If you believe that scripture interprets scripture, then your god is a book.***

In case you haven't noticed, too some people it has. Just like various religious trappings in traditions, or the law is what is worshiped in others.

It is Gods word, period. In itself it is paper with letters, it is the author who gives it authority.
It is study with guidance of the Holy Spirit that helps us grow.


***"And Philip ran thither to [him], and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me?"***

Ahhh, a new believer asking a teacher what the book contains. Classic, we still need teachers of the word, no problem there. And of intrest, it is **some man**, not the Pope....

[irishtenor]

I shouted because you won't listen. There is one intersessor, the Lord Jesus Christ. Pray though him and him only. To ask another LIVING human being to pray for you is not wrong and in fact very right, but to pray to or through a dead person is wrong. Mary is dead, Peter is dead, Christopher is dead, Ignatious, etc,. Pray to God through Jesus Christ.

[irishtenor]

Yes, Christ does give me authority. I am ordained as an elder in his church. I am NOT, let me repeat this, NOT interpreting anything. All I did for you, and all the other Catholics, is post scripture. Read the scripture, it is very clear. You don't have to filter scripture through the church when you have it in black and white right in front of you. Reading and understanding is very different from interpreting.

[Romulus]

And of intrest, it is **some man**, not the Pope....

"Some man"? I don't think so.

"Now an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, 'Arise and go toward the south along the road which goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.'"

Philip was sent. That's what "apostle" means, Gamecock.

"And how shall they preach unless they be sent"

[Gamecock]

So?

Oh, I forgot, the RCs have a monopoly on Christ. Even with all the sin commited by the RC church throughout history and up until now. But ya'll will never admit sin in your priests and Popes because you have the throne of Peter.

[AlguyA]

"I showed you scripture that says that NO ONE is sinless. No one was found worthy to open the seal, no one in heaven or on earth

Really? No one?

[irishtenor]

That is what the Bible says. Do you have a problem with that?

[irishtenor]

I am feeling that it is time to say goodbye to our Catholic friends. They can have their Pope, they can have their Mary worship, they can pray to saints that are dead, they can wallow in their traditions. You and I have Christ as our living God. We have the Word of God to comfort, teach, inspire, and grow us. I will settle for that. I am tired of arguing with the unteachable.

[Gamecock]

I am feeling that it is time to say goodbye to our Catholic friends. They can have their Pope, they can have their Mary worship, they can pray to saints that are dead, they can wallow in their traditions. You and I have Christ as our living God. We have the Word of God to comfort, teach, inspire, and grow us. I will settle for that. I am tired of arguing with the unteachable.

Sigh....

If we can just bring one to everlasting salvation...

[irishtenor]

When they say that the Bible is only a book unless it is interpreted by the Catholic church...and if we present scripture to them (just scripture, no commentary) they say it is just our personal interpretation because it hasn't been filtered by the Church, you can't argue with them. I believe that what was written in Mark chapter 4, verses 11 and 12 pertain to them. (Note to Catholics: don't read it by yourself, get the church to tell you what it means).

[AlguyA]

"That is what the Bible says. Do you have a problem with that?"

No, I don't have a problem with that. I've actually apparently read it a bit further than you have. Turns out there IS One worthy to open the seal. How do you square this with the scripture you've provided proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that "all have sinned" and there is "no one" worthy to break the seal?

[AlguyA]

"If we can just bring one to everlasting salvation..."

??????????????????????????????????

A Calvinist claiming "we" can bring one to everlasting salvation?

-)

[Gamecock]

(pssst: I'm trying to put it in terms that the neo-Pelagians around here can understand)

[irishtenor]

The only one worthy is the Lion of Judah, the Lamb who was slain. Jesus. He was sort of a special case, seeing as he was not created, he always was. Mary was created, created for a purpose, but she still sinned. If she hadn't, then she was worthy of heaven all by herself, she didn't need a savior. Nice try, you're still in error.