Virgin Mother of God

Companion to the Summa ^ | 1950 | Walter Farrell, O.P.

[Catholicguy]

Good luck. And as Dub Taylor once told Bill Cosby (he was subbing for Johhny Carson) "Shoot low. They may be crawling." :)

[Catholicguy]

Y W

[Krodg]

Thanks again for your help.

[irishtenor]

Still waiting for a retraction.

[IGNATIUS]

The movable type printing press was invented during the fifteenth century by a German Roman Catholic named Johann Gutenberg.He died a couple of decades before Luther was born.The Gutenberg Bible is reportedly the first major work printed in the West(about 1454).

A significant percentage of folks in Western Europe could not then read. Bible Book Stores did not make their appearance til the 20th century.

[Krodg]

Thank you for your help. Could you tell me when the New Testament canon was decided?

[Romulus]

Scripture interets Scripture?

If it does, it becomes radically self-sufficient and self-justifying, without respect to anything external. It becomes radically perfect. It becomes God. If you believe that scripture interprets scripture, then your god is a book.

"And Philip ran thither to [him], and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me?"

[irishtenor]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

Question for you. If scripture doesn't interpret scripture... who does? Fallable man? Fallable church?

All scripture is God breathed. It is without error, therefore, it CAN interpret itself.

[Romulus]

... and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

Quite. It doesn't say "the word became published and widely available for home study", does it? The Incarnate Word is a person. If you make the Bible your god, you worship a created thing.

If scripture doesn't interpret scripture... who does?

Don't make the mistake of confusing the container for the thing contained. Scripture comes from the (God-inspired) Church, and is discerned by the Church -- not the other way round. Since the Church is the Body of Christ (as scripture itself says), in what sense can it be fallible?

It is without error, therefore, it CAN interpret itself.

Scripture itself contradicts this view. If you make scripture the foundation of your faith you might as well be a muslim.

[irishtenor]

***Scripture itself contradicts this view. ***

Where, pray tell, do you find this?

[irishtenor]

Peter writes in 2 Peter 1:20-21 "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had it's origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."

Scripture is God breathed, it is the Word of God, it is inspired by the Holy Spirit, it is never from the will of men (or church), it is not even the prophet's interpretation, but God's. Are you now going to say that God cannot interpret his own writings?

[irishtenor]

I will ask you this question, because one of the other Catholics refuse to answer it. If the Bible and the Catholic church disagree about something, which is correct and which is in error?

[Romulus]

Acts 8:29-35
Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. And Philip ran thither to [him], and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

Romans 10:15
And how shall they preach, except they be sent?

1 Cor 12:29-30
[Are] all apostles? [are] all prophets? [are] all teachers? [are] all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

[Romulus]

If the Bible and the Catholic church disagree about something,

It's not possible to respond to your question as you've framed it. You're begging the question here, even if you don't realise it. To say that "the Bible disagrees" is to assume that the Bible speaks for itself. This is the very question we're debating, of course -- which I claim to be an impossibility. A more accurate way of putting it is "so-and-so's reading of the Bible disagrees with the Catholic Church."

Put that way, if a private interpretation of the Bible is at variance with the Catholic Church, the private reading is in error. As the Bible itself says.

[irishtenor]

Your choice of scripture puzzles me. How do they show that scripture cannot interpret scripture?

[Romulus]

Peter writes in 2 Peter 1:20-21...

I don't know the source of your translation, but here's the inter-lineal Greek /literal English text:

) 2 Peter 1:20 touto <5124> {THIS} prwton <4412> {FIRST} ginwskonteV <1097> (5723) {KNOWING,} oti <3754> {THAT} pasa <3956> {ANY} profhteia <4394> {PROPHECY} grafhV <1124> {OF SCRIPTURE} idiaV <2398> {OF ITS OWN} epilusewV <1955> {INTERPRETATION} ou <3756> ginetai <1096> (5736) {IS NOT,}

[Romulus]

How do they show that scripture cannot interpret scripture?

Rather than setting me to proving a negative, maybe you'd like to make your own case for the affirmative: how does scripture support your argument that it's self-interpreting?

[irishtenor]

ALL RIGHT. I WILL TRY TO PUT IT IN A WAY YOU CAN UNDERSTAND. THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SAYS TO PRAY TO MARY AND THE SAINTS, THE BIBLE SAYS TO PRAY TO GOD ONLY. IT NEVER SAYS TO PRAY TO MARY. WHICH ONE IS RIGHT.

There, easy question. One says one thing, one says another. Which one do you go by?

[irishtenor]

I gave you several verses.

[irishtenor]

***Scripture comes from the (God-inspired) Church, ***

Nonsense, scripture comes from God, through the Holy Spirit, to certain men who wrote it down being inspired by that same Spirit. It doesn't come from the church. Period.