THE TRUE CHURCH

Where is this one true Church? What is this one true Church like? What are the marks by which this one true Church may be known? You may well ask such questions. Give me your attention, and I will provide you with some answers.

1. The one true Church IS COMPOSED OF ALL BELIEVERS IN THE LORD JESUS. It is made up of all God's elect - of all converted men and women - of all true Christians. In whomsoever we can discern the election of God the Father, the sprinkling of the blood of God the Son, the sanctifying work of God the Spirit, in that person we see a member of Christ's true Church.

2. It is a Church OF WHICH ALL THE MEMBERS HAVE THE SAME MARKS. They are all born again of the Spirit; they all possess "repentance towards God, faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ," and holiness of life and conversation. They all hate sin, and they all love Christ. (They worship differently, and after various fashions; some worship with a form of prayer, and some with none; some worship kneeling, and some standing; but they all worship with one heart.) They are all led by one Spirit; they all build upon one foundation; they all draw their religion from one single book - that is the Bible. They are all joined to one great center - that is Jesus Christ. They all even now can say with one heart, "Hallelujah;" and they can all respond with one heart and voice, Amen and Amen.

3. It is a Church WHICH IS DEPENDENT UPON NO MINISTERS UPON EARTH, however much it values those who preach the gospel to its members. The life of its members does not hang upon Church-membership, or baptism, or the Lord's Supper - although they highly value these things when they are to be had. But it has only one Great Head - one Shepherd, one chief Bishop - and that is Jesus Christ. He alone, By His Spirit, admits the members of this Church, though ministers may show the door. Till He opens the door no man on earth can open it - neither bishops, nor presbyters, nor convocations, nor synods. Once let a man repent and believe the gospel, and that moment he becomes a member of this Church. Like the penitent thief, he may have no opportunity of being baptized; but he has that which is far better than any water-baptism - the baptism of the Spirit. He may not be able to receive the bread and wine in the Lord's Supper;but he eats Christ's body and drinks Christ's blood by faith every day he lives, and no minister on earth can prevent him. He may be ex-communicated by ordained men, and cut off from the outward ordinances of the professing Church; but all the ordained men in the world cannot shut him out of the true Church.

It is a Church whose existence does not depend on forms, ceremonies, cathedrals, churches, chapels, pulpits, fonts, vestments, organs, endowments, money, kings, governments, magistrates or any act of favor whatsoever from the hand of man. It has often lived on and continued when all these things have been taken from it. It has often been driven into the wilderness, or into dens and caves of the earth, by those who ought to have been its friends. Its existence depends on nothing but the presence of Christ and His Spirit; and they being ever with it, the Church cannot die.

4. This is the Church TO WHICH THE SCRIPTURAL TITLES OF PRESENT HONOR AND PRIVILEGE, AND THE PROMISES OF FUTURE GLORY ESPECIALLY BELONG; this is the Body of Christ; this is the flock of Christ; this is the household of faith and the family of God; this is God's building, God's foundation, and the temple of the Holy Ghost. This is the Church of the first-born, whose names are written in heaven; this is the royal priesthood, the chosen generation, the peculiar people, the purchased possession, the habitation of God, the light of the world, the salt and the wheat of the earth; this is the "Holy Catholic Church" of the Apostles' Creed; this is the "One Catholic and Apostolic Church" of the Nicene Creed; this is that Church to which the Lord Jesus promises "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it," and to which He says, "I am with you always, even unto the end of the world"(Matt.16:18; 28:2).

5. This is the only Church WHICH POSSESSES TRUE UNITY. Its members are entirely agreed on all the weightier matters of religion, for they are all taught by one Spirit. About God, and Christ, and the Spirit, and sin, and their own hearts, and faith, and repentance, and necessity of holiness, and the value of the Bible, and the importance of prayer, and the resurrection, and judgment to come - about all these points they are of one mind. Take three or four of them, strangers to one another, from the remotest corners of the earth; examine them separately on these points: you will find them all one judgment.

6. This is the only Church WHICH POSSESSES TRUE SANCTITY. Its members are all holy. They are not merely holy by profession, holy in name, and holy in the judgment of charity; they are all holy in act, and deed, and reality, and life, and truth. They are all more or less conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. No unholy man belongs to this Church.

7. This is the only Church WHICH IS TRULY CATHOLIC. It is not the Church of any one nation or people; its members are to be found in every part of the world where the gospel is received and believed. It is not confined within the limits of any one country, or pent up within the pale of any particular forms of outward government. In it there is no difference between Jew and Greek, black man and white, Episcopalian and Presbyterian - but faith in Christ is all. Its members will be gathered from north, and south, and east, and west, and will be of every name and tongue - but all one in Jesus Christ.

8. This is the only Church WHICH IS TRULY APOSTOLIC. It is built on the foundation laid by the Apostles, and holds the doctrines which they preached. The two grand objects at which its members aim are apostolic faith and apostolic practice; and they consider the man who talks of following the Apostles without possessing these two things to be no better than sounding brass and tinkling cymbal.

9. This is the only Church WHICH IS CERTAIN TO ENDURE UNTO THE END. Nothing can altogether overthrow and destroy it. Its members may be persecuted, oppressed, imprisoned, beaten, beheaded, burned; but the true Chruch is never altogether extinguished; it rises again from its afflictions; it lives on through fire and water. When crushed in one land it springs up in another. The Pharaohs, the Herods, the Neros, the Bloody Marys, have labored in vain to put down this Church; they slay their thousands, and then pass away and go to their own place. The true Church outlives them all, and sees them buried each in his turn. It is an anvil that has broken many a hammer in this world, and will break many a hammer still; it is a bush which is often burning, and yet it's not consumed.

10. This is the only Church OF WHICH NO ONE MEMBER CAN PERISH. Once enrolled in the lists of this Church, sinners are safe for eternity; they are never cast away. The election of God the Father, the continual intercession of God the Son, the daily renewing and sanctifying power of God the Holy Ghost, surround and fence them in like a garden enclosed. Not one bone of Christ's mystical Body shall ever be broken; not one lamb of Christ's flock shall ever be plucked out of His hand.

11. This is the Church WHICH DOES THE WORK OF CHRIST UPON EARTH. Its members are a little flock, and few in numbers, compared with the children of the world; one or two here, and two or three there - a few in this place and few in that. But these are they who shake the universe; these are they who change the fortunes of kingdoms by their prayers; these are they who are the active workers for spreading the knowledge of pure religion and undefiled; these are the life-blood of a country, the shield, the defence, the stay, and the support of any nation to which they belong.

12. This is the Church WHICH SHALL BE TRULY GLORIOUS AT THE END. When all earthly glory is passsed away then shall this Church be presented without spot before God the Father's throne. Thrones, principalities, and powers upon earth shall come to nothing; dignities, and offices, and endowments shall all pass away; but the Church of the first-born shall shine as the stars at the last, and be presented with joy before the Father's throne, in the day of Christ's appearing. When the Lord's jewels are made up, and manifestation of the sons of God takes place, Episcopacy, and Presbyterianism, and Congregationalism will not be mentioned; one Church only will be named, and that is the Church of the elect.

13. Reader, THIS IS THE TRUE CHURCH TO WHICH A MAN MUST BELONG, IF HE WOULD BE SAVED. Till you belong to this, you are nothing better than a lost soul. You may have the form, the husk, the skin, and the shell of religion, but you have not got the substance and the life. Yes, you may have countless outward privileges; you may enjoy great light, and knowledge - but if you do not belong to the Body of Christ, your light and knowledge and privileges will not save your soul. Alas, for the ignorance that prevails on this point! Men fancy if they join this church or that church, and become communicants, and go through certain forms, that all must be right in their souls. It is an utter delusion, it is a gross mistake. All were not Israel who were called Israel, and all are not members of Christ's Body who profess themselves Christian. TAKE NOTICE; you may be a staunch Episcopalian, or Presbyterian, or Independent, or Baptist, or Wesleyan, or Plymouth Brother - and yet not belong to the true Church. And if you do not, it will be better at last if you had never been born.

...about my bible

The fact is, the only reason you have the New Testament canon is because of the trustworthy teaching authority of the Catholic Church. As Augustine put it, ‘I would not believe in the Gospels were it not for the authority of the Catholic Church’ (Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 5:6). Any Christian accepting the authority of the New Testament does so, whether or not he admits it, because he has implicit trust that the Catholic Church made the right decision in determining the canon.

The fact is, the Holy Spirit guided the Catholic Church to recognize and determine the canon of the New and Old Testaments in the year 382 at the Council of Rome, under Pope Damasus I. This decision was ratified again at the councils of Hippo (393) and Carthage (397 and 419) and in numerous venues thereafter. You accept exactly the same books of the New Testament that Pope Damasus decreed were canonical, and no others.

Furthermore, one reason you accept the books you do is that they were in the Bible someone gave you when you first became a Christian. You accept them because they were handed on to you. This means you accept the canon of the New Testament that you do because of tradition, because tradition is simply what is handed on to us from those who were in the faith before us. So your knowledge of the exact books that belong in the Bible, such as Philemon and 3 John, rests on tradition rather than on Scripture itself.

The question you have to ask yourself is this: "Where did we get the Bible?" Until you can give a satisfactory answer (and there can really be only one answer) you aren’t in much of a position to rely on the authority of Scripture or to claim that you can be certain that you know how to accurately interpret it.

There are soooo many things one could say; but, It boils down to this. Everything she says is scriptural. You rely on what men have done since whatever date according to a group who can't prove themselves according to scripture and must therefore excuse themselves via an unproveable historical record that largely betrays them. Christians are not grounded in history, they're grounded in Christ.

I've been through these arguments over and over. Christ defined who the church is and what signs follow them. Pretenders to Christianity have largely created their own definitions of the church in order to mask the fact that they don't align with Christ's definition. Just as they have supplanted their own doctrines for the teachings of Christ.

Christ hung on a cross as a sacrifice that when finished, sealed the covenant making Christianity possible. He came off the tree and rose again to present the sin of the world to God once and for all as forgiven. At that point, the covenant was sealed. Never again since has a blood sacrifice been required for sin. How then, praytell, do you have a blood sacrifice in your mass? Spare us.

One really need not go very far in examining scripture to tell that the claimers of the "true church" banner historically are also trailing behind them a history that
looks more like the devil's work than that of Christ.
Where is it written that the church shall murder people for
believing differently. Where is it written that men must wear the mark of the church or be burnt at the stake? One by one we can rattle off issues of doctrine where the presumed "one true" church teaches contrary to scripture, acts contrary to scripture and has been contrary to scripture.

If we base it on historical action, then there is no unbroken lineage from the time of the Apostles - even a single "anti-pope" means that the line is broken. Accept those from the reign of harlots as it is lovingly called and it's an abomination. Reject them, and it's a broken line. Tough choice huh? Either they were holy or they weren't. Either they were a successor in spirit or in title. In all cases it's in title only and a title that was dreamt up over half a century after Christ ascended.

That church stole an empire through fraud, murdered those who believed differently, persecuted Israel, subborned the use of fraudulent documents and forged teachings, histories, laws and the like. It has both duped and been duped by fraud. If it doesn't care about the difference or can't tell the difference between fraudulent writings and true ones, then all claim of authority in such matters is forfeit. Authority is more than a claim. If you show me a pinto and tell me it's a corvette, reality wins. It's a pinto. Stop telling us it's a corvette then you won't have to be offended when all of us, seing it's a pinto, points out the fraudulent claim. Better yet, why not just read Christ's definition of the church and become one of us. Christians are not protestants. Nor are they anything else but Christian. Or did you not know that Christian was the term used early on. Christians follow Christ. Not men, not philosophy, etc. Christians follow Christ. Jump on the bandwagon. You too can be persecuted for following Christ and his example. You too can be defamed by Religious people and society at large alike.

Also, in John 6:60 (Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?) the listeners obviously understand Jesus in the literal sense. In the next verse, John 6:61, Jesus confirms this asking if they are offended. And then in John 6:66 (666) these followers who understand Jesus literally walk away from our Lord. The only place in the NT where Jesus loses followers for a doctrinal reason.

Of special note is what Jesus does NOT do. In all his other preachings, if there is confusion, Jesus explains his meaning. But here, Jesus lets followers depart from him. Would Jesus let a follower leave over a misunderstanding?

If you continue to read John 6, you will see that Jesus does ultimately explain His words to His disciples (after the crowds had left).

Jesus often left the multitudes in confusion in regard to His teachings, while He later took time to explain His teachings to His disciples. At some point, His disciples asked Him about this ...
Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
In keeping with this particular modus operandi, as explained by Jesus, he proceeds to explain to His disciples the meaning of His words in John 6:54,56-57 ...
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

I'm sorry, you missed my point... Let me try again...

I'm not saying that all Christians in the True Church would always be right about everything... certainly there are people in the Catholic Church who reject infallible doctrine.

My point is that Jesus makes a promise that his Church would be visible. A common protestant argument is that the True Church comprises of those people who have faith. But faith in what? How do I, or say a new Christian initaite, know which people comprise the true Church? How do I know which doctrines are true? How do I know how to live my life?

If you say, "read the bible for yourself," then I say, "the bible commands me to eat the flesh of the son of man. What does this mean?" Did Christ leave us with no guidance?

Well, for starters, he gave us the gift of the Holy Spirit. But preacher A says this and preacher B says that. Which one has the Holy Spirit? Part of me says I should throw my arms around that woman and take her for a wife, but part of me says I should go back and try to make ammends with my first wife. Which voice is the Holy Spirit?

The Catholic Church explains that the Holy Spirit guides the Church in unity. Although I must still seek spiritual discernment for myself, it can at least shield me from sin by clearly, unambiguously, and in unity teaching me how to discern, and how not to fall into sin.

If I go to a Protestant church, one will tell me divorce is unacceptable, one will tell me I should build a new Christian life; one will tell me I need to be baptized again, one will tell me the baptism I received as a kid suffices. I am lost, without a shpeherd.

1948 Index of Prohibited Books Online here:

http://www.univ.com.br/ACMM/Diversos/Informacoes/filosofia/espiritismo_e_religiao/Index_Librorum_Prohibitorum/~ILB-index.htm

Test the veracity of Mom's claims for yourself.

"Ever since the first Index of Prohibited Books was issued by Pope Paul IV in 1559, the Bible has had a prominent place in these lists of forbidden books."

False translations of the Bible? Yes. THE Bible? No.

"Twenty-five years later, Pope Alexander VI issued a bull prohibiting the printers of Cologne, Mentz, Treves, and Magdeburg, from publishing any books without the express license of their archbishops."

These were Ecclesiastical states. The decree is one of civil censorship.

"All these New Testaments were translated from the original Greek, and not from the imperfect Latin Vulgate used by the papal church."

Rather, translated from Erasmus' Greek manuscript. They were hardly translated from the "orginal" Greek, which is certainly not what is found in Erasmus.

"Every honest intellect was at once struck with the strange discrepancy between the teaching of the Sacred Volume and that of the Church of Rome."

Of course. That's why it took 100 years to get the new religion off the ground. That's why conversion to Protestantism could only occur en masse by force of arms of the King in Germany, England, Scandanavia, etc.

Do you ever ask forgiveness for all these lies you tell against your ex-Church Mom?

Acts 2.42. And they were convicted in the knowledge of the apostles, and they participated in prayer and breaking of the Eucharist*.
43. And there was submission in every soul and great signs, and heroic acts performed by the apostles in Jerusalem.
44. And all those who believed were like one [body,] and whatever they had, they shared,*
45. And those who had assets sold them and divided them, one with the other, as there was need.
46. And every day, they worshipped* in the temple in one spirit, and in the house, they spread the bounty,* and they received the message of hope as they conducted Mass, and with contrite hearts,
47. They worshipped God, as they engaged in the fellowship of grace before all the nation. And Lord Jesus Christ increased them daily, those that Lived in faith.
*2:42 Lit. Aramaic word retained: "Sacrifice from the Right [of God]" or, the Holy Communion.
*2:43 Lit. Ar. idiomatic expression: "Was for inside."
*2:46.1 Lit. Ar. idiomatic figure of speech: "Amened."
*2:46.2 Lit. Ar. expression: "Measured out the spread."

Acts 20.7. "And on Sunday, while we were gathered to break the Eucharist, Paul spoke with them, because on the following day he was destined to leave. And his speaking dragged until the middle of the night.

St. Luke 22.19. And he consecrated the bread and pledged it and broke it and gave it to them and declared.
"This is my body that I give on your behalf.
This is what you shall be doing* in your Offerings* to me.
20. And likewise also the cup, after they ate, he declared.
"This is the cup of the new covenant* in my blood
...that will be spilt on your behalf.

I am lost, without a shpeherd.

If you seek Christ, the Good Shepherd, God will draw you to where you need to be.
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The fact is, the only reason you have the New Testament canon is because of the trustworthy teaching authority of the Catholic Church. As Augustine put it, ‘I would not believe in the Gospels were it not for the authority of the Catholic Church’ (Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 5:6). Any Christian accepting the authority of the New Testament does so, whether or not he admits it, because he has implicit trust that the Catholic Church made the right decision in determining the canon. The fact is, the Holy Spirit guided the Catholic Church to recognize and determine the canon of the New and Old Testaments in the year 382 at the Council of Rome, under Pope Damasus I. This decision was ratified again at the councils of Hippo (393) and Carthage (397 and 419) and in numerous venues thereafter. You accept exactly the same books of the New Testament that Pope Damasus decreed were canonical, and no others.
Furthermore, one reason you accept the books you do is that they were in the Bible someone gave you when you first became a Christian. You accept them because they were handed on to you. This means you accept the canon of the New Testament that you do because of tradition, because tradition is simply what is handed on to us from those who were in the faith before us. So your knowledge of the exact books that belong in the Bible, such as Philemon and 3 John, rests on tradition rather than on Scripture itself.
The question you have to ask yourself is this: "Where did we get the Bible?" Until you can give a satisfactory answer (and there can really be only one answer) you aren’t in much of a position to rely on the authority of Scripture or to claim that you can be certain that you know how to accurately interpret it.
This argument is very old and very lame. Jews are responsible for bringing my OT through the ages and it is entirely about Jesus. Now for them to say that since they "gave me" my OT then who am I to believe anyone but them to interpret it would be pretty foolish too wouldn't it. This argument is also blasphemous because it puts man in the place of God in His bringing His Word to me. Now if only the RC's who work this sorry argument to death would start reading that book that "they brought to the world(not)" then we could dispense with the many RC traditions that do not appear in the bible.

You need to get out more dave.

He's Al. I'm Dave. ;-)

I have been in many non Catholic churches and they all accept them as valid

They accept the words, but they don't accept the creeds. That is, like everything else, the creeds have been re-interpreted. Take, for instance, this posting of yours. It is utterly inconsistent with the creedal pronouncement of belief in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church.

Don't even begin on the "communion of saints."

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