THE TRUE CHURCH

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/9170/RYLE2.HTM ^ | 11/4/03 | J.C. Ryle

[RnMomof7]

THE TRUE CHURCH

J.C. Ryle

---

I want you to belong to the one true Church: to the Church outside of which there is no salvation. I do not ask where you go on a Sunday; I only ask, "Do you belong to the one true Church?"

 Where is this one true Church? What is this one true Church like? What are the marks by which this one true Church may be known? You may well ask such questions. Give me your attention, and I will provide you with some answers.

 1. The one true Church IS COMPOSED OF ALL BELIEVERS IN THE LORD JESUS. It is made up of all God's elect - of all converted men and women - of all true Christians. In whomsoever we can discern the election of God the Father, the sprinkling of the blood of God the Son, the sanctifying work of God the Spirit, in that person we see a member of Christ's true Church.

 2. It is a Church OF WHICH ALL THE MEMBERS HAVE THE SAME MARKS. They are all born again of the Spirit; they all possess "repentance towards God, faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ," and holiness of life and conversation. They all hate sin, and they all love Christ. (They worship differently, and after various fashions; some worship with a form of prayer, and some with none; some worship kneeling, and some standing; but they all worship with one heart.) They are all led by one Spirit; they all build upon one foundation; they all draw their religion from one single book - that is the Bible. They are all joined to one great center - that is Jesus Christ. They all even now can say with one heart, "Hallelujah;" and they can all respond with one heart and voice, Amen and Amen.

 3. It is a Church WHICH IS DEPENDENT UPON NO MINISTERS UPON EARTH, however much it values those who preach the gospel to its members. The life of its members does not hang upon Church-membership, or baptism, or the Lord's Supper - although they highly value these things when they are to be had. But it has only one Great Head - one Shepherd, one chief Bishop - and that is Jesus Christ. He alone, By His Spirit, admits the members of this Church, though ministers may show the door. Till He opens the door no man on earth can open it - neither bishops, nor presbyters, nor convocations, nor synods. Once let a man repent and believe the gospel, and that moment he becomes a member of this Church. Like the penitent thief, he may have no opportunity of being baptized; but he has that which is far better than any water-baptism - the baptism of the Spirit. He may not be able to receive the bread and wine in the Lord's Supper;but he eats Christ's body and drinks Christ's blood by faith every day he lives, and no minister on earth can prevent him. He may be ex-communicated by ordained men, and cut off from the outward ordinances of the professing Church; but all the ordained men in the world cannot shut him out of the true Church.

 It is a Church whose existence does not depend on forms, ceremonies, cathedrals, churches, chapels, pulpits, fonts, vestments, organs, endowments, money, kings, governments, magistrates or any act of favor whatsoever from the hand of man. It has often lived on and continued when all these things have been taken from it. It has often been driven into the wilderness, or into dens and caves of the earth, by those who ought to have been its friends. Its existence depends on nothing but the presence of Christ and His Spirit; and they being ever with it, the Church cannot die.

 4. This is the Church TO WHICH THE SCRIPTURAL TITLES OF PRESENT HONOR AND PRIVILEGE, AND THE PROMISES OF FUTURE GLORY ESPECIALLY BELONG; this is the Body of Christ; this is the flock of Christ; this is the household of faith and the family of God; this is God's building, God's foundation, and the temple of the Holy Ghost. This is the Church of the first-born, whose names are written in heaven; this is the royal priesthood, the chosen generation, the peculiar people, the purchased possession, the habitation of God, the light of the world, the salt and the wheat of the earth; this is the "Holy Catholic Church" of the Apostles' Creed; this is the "One Catholic and Apostolic Church" of the Nicene Creed; this is that Church to which the Lord Jesus promises "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it," and to which He says, "I am with you always, even unto the end of the world"(Matt.16:18; 28:2).

 5. This is the only Church WHICH POSSESSES TRUE UNITY. Its members are entirely agreed on all the weightier matters of religion, for they are all taught by one Spirit. About God, and Christ, and the Spirit, and sin, and their own hearts, and faith, and repentance, and necessity of holiness, and the value of the Bible, and the importance of prayer, and the resurrection, and judgment to come - about all these points they are of one mind. Take three or four of them, strangers to one another, from the remotest corners of the earth; examine them separately on these points: you will find them all one judgment.

 6. This is the only Church WHICH POSSESSES TRUE SANCTITY. Its members are all holy. They are not merely holy by profession, holy in name, and holy in the judgment of charity; they are all holy in act, and deed, and reality, and life, and truth. They are all more or less conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. No unholy man belongs to this Church.

 7. This is the only Church WHICH IS TRULY CATHOLIC. It is not the Church of any one nation or people; its members are to be found in every part of the world where the gospel is received and believed. It is not confined within the limits of any one country, or pent up within the pale of any particular forms of outward government. In it there is no difference between Jew and Greek, black man and white, Episcopalian and Presbyterian - but faith in Christ is all. Its members will be gathered from north, and south, and east, and west, and will be of every name and tongue - but all one in Jesus Christ.

 8. This is the only Church WHICH IS TRULY APOSTOLIC. It is built on the foundation laid by the Apostles, and holds the doctrines which they preached. The two grand objects at which its members aim are apostolic faith and apostolic practice; and they consider the man who talks of following the Apostles without possessing these two things to be no better than sounding brass and tinkling cymbal.

 9. This is the only Church WHICH IS CERTAIN TO ENDURE UNTO THE END. Nothing can altogether overthrow and destroy it. Its members may be persecuted, oppressed, imprisoned, beaten, beheaded, burned; but the true Chruch is never altogether extinguished; it rises again from its afflictions; it lives on through fire and water. When crushed in one land it springs up in another. The Pharaohs, the Herods, the Neros, the Bloody Marys, have labored in vain to put down this Church; they slay their thousands, and then pass away and go to their own place. The true Church outlives them all, and sees them buried each in his turn. It is an anvil that has broken many a hammer in this world, and will break many a hammer still; it is a bush which is often burning, and yet it's not consumed.

 10. This is the only Church OF WHICH NO ONE MEMBER CAN PERISH. Once enrolled in the lists of this Church, sinners are safe for eternity; they are never cast away. The election of God the Father, the continual intercession of God the Son, the daily renewing and sanctifying power of God the Holy Ghost, surround and fence them in like a garden enclosed. Not one bone of Christ's mystical Body shall ever be broken; not one lamb of Christ's flock shall ever be plucked out of His hand.

 11. This is the Church WHICH DOES THE WORK OF CHRIST UPON EARTH. Its members are a little flock, and few in numbers, compared with the children of the world; one or two here, and two or three there - a few in this place and few in that. But these are they who shake the universe; these are they who change the fortunes of kingdoms by their prayers; these are they who are the active workers for spreading the knowledge of pure religion and undefiled; these are the life-blood of a country, the shield, the defence, the stay, and the support of any nation to which they belong.

 12. This is the Church WHICH SHALL BE TRULY GLORIOUS AT THE END. When all earthly glory is passsed away then shall this Church be presented without spot before God the Father's throne. Thrones, principalities, and powers upon earth shall come to nothing; dignities, and offices, and endowments shall all pass away; but the Church of the first-born shall shine as the stars at the last, and be presented with joy before the Father's throne, in the day of Christ's appearing. When the Lord's jewels are made up, and manifestation of the sons of God takes place, Episcopacy, and Presbyterianism, and Congregationalism will not be mentioned; one Church only will be named, and that is the Church of the elect.

 13. Reader, THIS IS THE TRUE CHURCH TO WHICH A MAN MUST BELONG, IF HE WOULD BE SAVED. Till you belong to this, you are nothing better than a lost soul. You may have the form, the husk, the skin, and the shell of religion, but you have not got the substance and the life. Yes, you may have countless outward privileges; you may enjoy great light, and knowledge - but if you do not belong to the Body of Christ, your light and knowledge and privileges will not save your soul. Alas, for the ignorance that prevails on this point! Men fancy if they join this church or that church, and become communicants, and go through certain forms, that all must be right in their souls. It is an utter delusion, it is a gross mistake. All were not Israel who were called Israel, and all are not members of Christ's Body who profess themselves Christian. TAKE NOTICE; you may be a staunch Episcopalian, or Presbyterian, or Independent, or Baptist, or Wesleyan, or Plymouth Brother - and yet not belong to the true Church. And if you do not, it will be better at last if you had never been born.
 

Return to Rich's Home Page of Reformed Theology

[RnMomof7]

You are on Ann..we are having a wedding in a few weeks , so I have little time on the computer right now. :>)

[polemikos]

Do you really believe that the infinite GOD, NEEDS any specfic church...

It's not a question of what God needs, but what man needs. One church leads to one truth. Protestantism leads to error. That's not an attack. It is just an undeniable, historical fact.

Guess you don't remember the apostle's argument about who was the greatest apostle?

That's why one of the pope's favorite titles is "Servant of the Servants". But really, not very relevant to the issue of pursuing truth, regardless of where it might lead.

you cannot insult, or offend me, by putting down "Protestants".

Citing the logical contradictions of Protestantism hardly constitutes a put down.

What I find amusing is that presented with the logical inconsistencies of your belief system, you choose not to defend your faith, but attack me as "a true inheritor of those 'fine' folks who murdered each other in the name of 'god' in past years." Pardon me for noticing the lack of charity and decorum.

[RnMomof7]

Huh? Virtually an entire chapter spent on the Bread of Life. Throughout, the Jews are explicitly troubled by his claims as the Bread from Heaven (41-2) and that they are to eat his flesh (52), even more so when he becomes more explicit (60). Jesus spends several verses not only repeating, but becoming more literal. Jesus confirms their literal understanding by asking are they offended (61) by his literalness? But they did not leave then did they? They grumbled because a man was telling them to break the Law

But they did not leave until Jesus gave them the REALLY hard teaching of election..You do not work your way to heaven God chooses you. Legalists are very unhappy if they can not control their eternity

Yet some how this becomes an issue, not over the "hard saying", but over a legalism? I don't see how your argument can work.

That does not surprise me one bit

Those that leave are not the Pharisees. They are his disciples (6:66).

But His purpose was to drive them away...He was separating the wheat from the chaff

The scripture says He knew who would leave..He did nothing to stop it, in fact he kept making His teaching harder and harder. You assume that Christ was desperate for followers ...He was not ("Many are called but few are chosen")

His disciples have seen the excess legalisms swept away throughout his ministry. It is ONLY here that they are explicitly troubled by his teaching on "eat my flesh". It is ONLY here that they leave. Leaving over a "hard saying" makes perfect sense. Leaving over a "legalism" does not. And perhaps most importantly for those that deny the Real Presence, it is here that Judas is loss

Only here do they learn that following Christ around will not save them. Just as the legalisms will not save them ..

And perhaps most importantly for those that deny the Real Presence, it is here that Judas is loss

You of course can PROVE this from scripture. My Bible tells me Judas was ordained from before the foundation of the world to betray Jesus . At the Last Supper God removed His restraining hand from Judas and allowed Him to be given over to Satan..

It had nothing to do with the "real presence "

BTW How did they eat the flesh of Christ as he was still wearing it? :>)

[polemikos]

The assertion was made that only under the teaching of the Catholic Church was it possible to know what was sin.

That's a fairly tortured reading of the point that dangus was trying to make. However, it is true that "sin" in one Protestant church is considered "just" in another. Just an obervation. How does a Protestant know what is truth?

If the leaders don't know how can they instruct? If we are incapable of interpeting scripture without their leadership how can we be "protected from sin"? How is this current group of "teologians" any different than the ones who's writing you are relying on? After all they are the spiritual children of their predecesors.

Forgive me. I can't follow your point here, so the following may not apply. Are you referring to Protestants or Catholics? For the most part, the problems you list are endemic to Protestantism. While they also exist in Catholicism, the true teachings of the Church are well documented. Just read a Catechism. That the 70' and 80's saw lax catechesis in the Church is well documented. That it is being fixed is also a fact.

[polemikos]

Your argument is too tortured. A plain reading of the text yields the Catholic interpretation, an interpretation held by the immediate disciples of the Apostles, an interpretation held for close to 2,000 years by the Catholic Church.

Whatever else might be said, the early Church took John 6 literally. In fact, there is no record from the early centuries that implies Christians doubted the constant Catholic interpretation. There exists no document in which the literal interpretation is opposed and only the metaphorical accepted.

Why do Fundamentalists and Evangelicals reject the plain, literal interpretation of John 6? For them, Catholic sacraments are out because they imply a spiritual reality
— grace — being conveyed by means of matter. This seems to them to be a violation of the divine plan. For many Protestants, matter is not to be used, but overcome or avoided. As such, the hunt for any interpretation to void the Catholic one is necessary. Any novel interpretation that overthrows the Catholic meaning is accepted. A prima facia case of eisegesis.

[dangus]

Wherever did you acquire such a strange idea?

From my orthodox Jewish roommate, whose Tanakh had no vowels.

[jjm2111]

Long post. Some of these sins seem so mild compared to others.

1. I am the Lord your God. You shall not have strange gods before me.

- Involvement in occult practices, e.g., witchcraft, ouija boards, seances, palm reading, tarot cards, hypnotism, divination, astrology, black magic, sorcery, etc.
- Involvement in or adherence to New Age or Eastern philosophies, atheism or agnosticism
- Apostasy (leaving the Church)
- Adherence to a schismatic group
- Putting faith in superstition, e.g., horoscopes, good luck charms, etc.
- Joining the Masons or other secret society. What's the big deal about the Masons?
- Receiving Holy Communion in the state of mortal sin Being a Mason and receiving communion is a double whammy?
- Receiving the Sacraments of Confirmation or Matrimony while in the state of mortal sin
- Willful participation in illicit (non-emergency) “General Absolution” services
- Being married by a Justice of the Peace or by a minister of another denomination (without dispensation) So if a Bishop says it's okay, it's okay?
- Involvement in false or pagan worship
- Willfully denying the Faith of the Catholic Church
- Despair of God’s grace or mercy
- Presumption (committing a mortal sin with the idea that you can just go to confession)
- Hatred of God
- Simony (buying or selling spiritual things)
- Failure to receive Holy Communion at least once per year ( if possible, during the Easter Season)
- Desecration of the Holy Eucharist

2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.

- Using God’s name intentionally as a curse - Seriously wishing evil upon another - Serious slander or insult of a sacred person or object - Making an oath in a secret society Again, how is this taking the Lord's name in vain? - Telling a lie or withholding a serious sin in confession
- Blasphemy (words of hatred, reproach or defiance toward God; speaking ill of God)
- Perjury (lying under oath)
- Swearing false oaths

3. Remember to keep holy the Lord’s Day.

- Missing Mass on Sunday or a Holy Day of Obligation without a serious reason
- Doing unnecessary work on Sunday for a long period of time, i.e., more than several hours
- Intentional failure to fast or abstain on appointed days
- Requiring employees to work on Sunday in non-essential occupations

4. Honor your father and mother.

- Serious failure to care for aged parents
- Serious neglect of the duties of one’s state in life What does this mean?
- Serious disrespect for or disobedience to parents, superiors or authorities Which superiors or authorities? Corrupt politicians? Compromised clergymen
- Wishing death or evil on parents
- Abuse or serious neglect of children
- Failure to baptize children in a reasonable time (within a few months) after birth
- Serious neglect of the religious education or upbringing of children
- Failure to carry out the last will of deceased parents

5. You shall not kill.

- Murder, homicide or manslaughter
- Procurement of an abortion Amen.
- Promoting, counseling or paying for an abortion Amen.
- Knowingly voting for someone who is pro-abortion What if both candidates are pro-abortion, I'm going to hell?
- Willfully injuring or trying to hurt another person
- Willfully leading another into serious sin
- Driving dangerously or recklessly
- Driving under the influence of drugs or alcohol
- Willfully harboring hatred for another
- Taking or selling illegal drugs
- Willful drunkenness uhh....how drunk is drunk
- Self mutilation
- Excessive tattoos Why is this a mortal sin?
- Excessive body piercing Again, why?
- Piercing of the nipples or sexual organs [/eye rolling]
- Sterilization Huh?
- Promotion of or involvement in euthanasia
- Serious entertainment of suicidal thoughts
- Attempting or intending suicide
- Willful failure to bury the body or ashes of the dead
- Willful engagement in unjust lawsuits
- Bigotry (hatred for persons of other races)
- Intentionally placing temptation before the weak

6. You shall not commit adultery.

- Adultery
- Fornication (intercourse prior to marriage)
- Masturbation or other impure acts with self [/eye rolling]
- Homosexual acts
- Using a contraceptive [/eye rolling]
- Dressing or acting in a manner intended to cause arousal in another (spouses excepted)
- Kissing or touching another passionately for the purpose of arousal (spouses excepted)
- Allowing another to kiss or touch you in a sexual manner (spouses excepted)
- Intentionally causing a sexual climax outside of intercourse [/eye rolling]
- Onanism, i.e. intentional withdrawal and non-vaginal ejaculation This is a MORTAL sin? - Flagrant immodesty in dress
- Bestiality (sexual acts with animals)
- Oral sex (permitted as foreplay in marriage)
- Anal sex or other degrading sex practices
- Prostitution
- Rape
- In-vitro fertilization or artificial insemination
- Surrogate motherhood
- “Selective reduction” of babies in the womb
- Types of fertility testing that involve immoral acts
- Involvement in or support of human cloning
- Willful divorce or desertion
- Incest
- Polygamy or polyandry (many wives/husbands)
- Cohabitation prior to marriage
- Destroying the innocence of another by seducing or introducing them to immorality
- Lust in the heart (“if I could I would”)
- “Swinging” or wife swapping
- Transvestitism or cross dressing

7. You shall not steal.

- Stealing a large amount of money or a valuable item
- Willfully destroying or defacing another’s property
- Stealing something consecrated to God or from a holy place
- Buying, selling, receiving or concealing items known to be stolen
- Willful failure to make restitution
- Excessive gambling
- Defrauding workers of their wages
- Serious failure to fulfill work requirements
- Padding expense or per diem accounts This isn't theft. This is getting the raise you deserved. ;)
- Taking advantage of the poor, simple, inexperienced or less fortunate
- Denying help to the poor, needy or destitute when able to help them easily
- Defrauding creditors
- Bribery or taking bribes
- Blackmail
- Fraud or embezzlement
- Price fixing
- Tax evasion
- Forgery
- Excessive waste or expense
- Violating copyrights
- Pirating computer software Yes, pirating computer software and slavery are both equal sins. I see that now.
- Slavery
- Serious cruelty to animals

8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

- False witness (not under oath) or perjury (under oath)
-Telling large or premeditated lies
- Serious gossip, detraction (revealing the faults of another without serious reason), or calumny (harming the reputation of another by falsities)
- Violation of a confidence without good reason
- Being an accomplice to another’s grave sin

9. You shall not desire your neighbor’s wife.

- Viewing pornography in books, magazines, movies, the internet, etc.
- Reading sexually explicit materials
- Dwelling on impure thoughts or fantasies for the purpose of arousal
- Willfully lusting after another

10. You shall not desire your neighbor’s goods.

- Serious and willful greed or avarice
- Intention to steal or destroy the goods of another

Venial Sins and Imperfections*

* Imperfections are not sins so they do not need to be confessed. No distinction is made on this sheet between venial sins and imperfections because it is not always easy to make the distinction. Some things are imperfections because they are very small, other things are imperfections because they are dispositions of the soul and not willful actions or failures, still others because they are habitual.

1. I am the Lord your God. You shall not have strange gods before me.

- Failure to pray on a daily basis
- Not trying to love God with my whole mind, heart, soul and strength
- Trying to control things rather than seek God’s will
- Entertaining doubts against the Faith
- Failing to seek out or learn the teachings of the Church
- Indifference or ingratitude to God
- Lukewarmness in the relationship with God
- Not trying to grow spiritually; being content with mediocrity
- Acedia (spiritual sloth)
- Putting other things or people before God, e.g., TV, radio, sports, hobbies, etc.
- Attachment to human respect or affection, i.e., caring more about what others think than what God thinks in order to fit in or be liked
- Not trusting God
- Failure to fulfill the duties of one’s state in life
- Playing Dungeons and Dragons or similar games Oh Lord is that stupid. Is this the official position of the Catholic Church???
- Tempting God Tempting God and Playing D&D are in the same league. Again, I see the logic here.
- Being angry at God
- Embarrassment of being Catholic
- Failure to defend the Church when ridiculed
- Failure to support the work of the Church monetarily and/or with time and ability
- Not taking part in the work of evangelization
- Being willfully distracted at Mass or in prayer
- Putting off confession needlessly
- Failing to accept or offer up suffering
- Refusing or denying the mercy of God
- Not trying to practice recollection or the frequent remembrance of God’s presence
- Failure to pray when tempted
- Failure to examine one’s conscience daily
- Giving into depression, self pity or self deprecating thoughts

2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.

- Using the Lord’s name lightly, in surprise or in anger (habitual, not thinking)
- Cursing thoughtlessly
- Using the names of Mary, a Saint, the Pope or other sacred persons irreverently
- Using vulgar or inappropriate language
- Telling bad jokes about sacred persons or objects
- Speaking badly of the Church
- Inappropriate or irreverent use of Scripture

3. Remember to keep holy the Lord’s Day.

- Doing unnecessary work on Sunday
- Failing to keep Sunday as a day for family and recreation
- Failing to spend extra time on Sunday in prayer and study of the Faith
- Allowing sports or other schedules to dictate the Sunday schedule
- Being irreverent in church
- Not paying attention or participating at Mass
- Coming late to Mass or leaving early without a serious reason
- Desecrating the day by sinful amusements, bad company, inappropriate entertainment, etc.

4. Honor your father and mother.

- Fighting with siblings
- Disobedience to parents or authorities
- Failure to give proper respect to parents or those in authority
- Treating those under one’s authority disrespectfully
- Failure to respect the dignity of children
- Speaking badly about parents
- Speaking badly about children
- Speaking badly about one’s spouse
- Neglecting duties toward spouse or children
- Failing to give good example to one’s family
- Not trying to cultivate peace in the family
- Taking one’s spouse for granted
- Making fun of or failing to help the elderly or handicapped
- Not praying for those entrusted to your care
- Failing to pray for those in authority over you, e.g., parents, teachers, employers, government officials, etc.
- Failure to teach children adequately about God and the spiritual life
- Lack of gratitude toward parents
- Nagging spouse or children
- Treating adult children like minors
- Meddling in the affairs of married children
- Too lax with rules, boundaries and discipline
- Too strict with rules, boundaries and discipline
- Breaking just civil laws without serious reason
- Being ashamed of or embarrassed about parents

5. You shall not kill. - Pride, arrogance
- Vanity
- Stubbornness without good reason
- Rudeness
- Failure to apologize
- Fighting or arguing over slight matters
- Anger
- Using obscene or vulgar gestures
- Prejudice
- Harboring a grudge
- Seeking revenge or retaliation
- Wishing evil upon another
- Impatience
- Selfishness
- Listening to bad music
- Excessive watching of television
- Excessive playing of computer games
- Excessive use of the internet Bad FR, Bad!
- Watching TV or movies that promote sex or violence
- Playing computer games that promote sex or violence
- Refusing to forgive another
- Intemperance (overeating or drinking too much)
- Driving carelessly
- Failing to care for one’s health
- Smoking or chewing tobacco
- Abusing medications
- Sloth (laziness)
- Procrastination
- Lack of puncuality
- Failure to respect the dignity of self or others
- Giving scandal to another
- Treating another unjustly
- Failure to take medications if such are necessary This is really a sin?
- Doing things willfully to anger others
- Violating friendships
- Failure to pray for deceased parents or relatives
- Using the “silent treatment” on others
- Failure to pray for sinners

6. You shall not commit adultery.

- Lack of custody of the eyes (looking inappropriately at others)
- Allowing the heart to stray from one’s spouse
- Dressing somewhat immodestly
- Acting or carrying oneself immodestly
- Treating others as objects
- Failure to respect persons of the opposite sex
- Seeking wrongful attention from another
- Selfishness in marital intimacy
- Failure to be open to life without serious reason
- Keeping bad company

7. You shall not steal.

- Attachments to persons or things
- Theft of small or inexpensive items
- Willful Failure to return borrowed items
- Wasting time
- Failure to pay debts promptly
- Failing to practice charity or to help the poor
- Squandering money on needless things or pursuits Who is one stealing from here?
- Not keeping a promise

Yada, yada, yada. Are these sins the position of the Catholic Church or is it this guy's position?

[dangus]

>>>>With the vowels ommitted, is there potential for ambiguity?

>>Only if you don't know how the words are supposed to be pronounced. nd vn thn, mst wrds wldnt b dffclt t fgr

OF course, as I did clearly state, there were also no spaces.

So try deciphering this:

Frscr'ndsvnyrsg'rfrfthrsbrtfth'nntncncvd'nlbty'ndddctdttdthtllmn'rcrtdqul.

(I added an apostrophe where Hebrew monetics would require there to be a consonant, but English doesn't.)

[malakhi]

The beginning of the Gettysburg Address.

If you wanted to make it more challenging, you could have written it from right to left. ;o)

[Blessed]

I was making the point that what you condem in protestants is epidemic in the Catholic Church.The difference being we remove pastors who violate their vows or teach heresy.The only instances I see of that in Catholicism is when secular law is violated.Then they circle the wagons and act to protect the treasury.Jesus said to judge a tree by the fruit it produced.Where is the fruit Rome is producing.

[dangus]

>> I am sorry but I see no unity in the teachings of the Catholic church. You have some leaders who ok homosexuality, divorce, married clergy and birth control.

A bald-faced, patent and absurd lie. (Except for a married clergy -- the celibate priesthood is not doctrine but a discipline within the Roman Patriarchy.) Unless by leaders you mean political leaders who are Catholic In Name Only. But I'd've thought it was obvious that I was referring to Bishops, not politicians, since politicians do not speak for the Church.

[Havoc]

James 2,19 "Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

Now turn it around and apply what is known. 'it is the work of the Lord that you believe on the one whom he sent' ie Christ. Work = belief. faith without belief is dead. This doesn't mean that demons are saved for belief as you attempt to proffer. The demons believe but have no faith in God, thus their rebellion. Sin is rebellion against God. Your physical works won't save you.

But let's parablize it for you. If you see a lever and know it will lift a weight and the weight needs lifted, what have you accomplished if the lever is never employed. This is work. If you believe in Jesus and have the faith to put behind it, and you never apply the work of confessing that belief, then the belief is dead. If you hire a sniper to assassinate Hitler - outfit him, provide all the tools and he doesn't pull the trigger, the mission is dead.

Jesus wasn't teaching that you had to do good things all the time and appear good to earn your way. He said in John 10 that you have to listen to him and follow to be one of his followers. It isn't rituals, it's obedience. And most religious types don't care to obey, they want community, acceptance, power, money, fame. There are a good many egos to pet on this planet, and many religious types like that ego petting when it's their ego and they get to look like john q. Goodcitezen by wrapping themselves in appearances. There is every reason under the sun that religious types are drawn to religion in general. Christians aren't drawn to religion. They are drawn to Christ. And this is something that is absolutely perplexing to religianity. They think being drawn to Christ is a matter of showing up and singing the favorite pious verses that make them feel good. Saul was happy so long as David played and sang. It didn't save him; but, it made him feel good.. With that, I'll leave you to think.

[Havoc]

You seem to have forgotten that one about not crafting images of anything under in the air, on the earth or under the earth. And that second part about not bowing, praying, serving or worshipping them. Wonder why that is..

[Blessed]

So none of your Bishops condone Gay Priest?
None of your Bishops have endorsed Pro-abortion canidates?
Anulments for rich Catholics are not a function of answering a few questions the right way(wink,wink)?

[polemikos]

I was making the point that what you condem in protestants is epidemic in the Catholic Church.

And again, you are confusing Catholicism with the sins of some Catholics. An interesting but moot point. Catholicism is still true even if its practitioners are not. Presumably you do not condemn Christianity because an Apostle was bad. The same is true for the Church that Christ established on Peter.

[Blessed]

- Squandering money on needless things or pursuits Who is one stealing from here?

God maybe.It all belongs to him we are just entrusted with it.

[dangus]

This list is not dogme, but is meant to aid people in searching their conscience.
>> What's the big deal about the Masons?
Masons are an occult religion. Rites of initiation at higher levels are directly blasphemous and sacreligious....
Marriage performed by someone who is not a priest suggests apostasy (leaving the CHurch.) Obviously, if a bishop finds a valid reason to do so, it's not apostasy by the obvious reason that you have gone to a Church authority to okay it.
>> (oaths in secret societies) Again, how is this taking the Lord's name in vain? It's not a valid use of the Lord's name.

>> Negelct of duties of station of life. What does this mean?
You should fulfill the role of your vocation. If you choose the married life, for instance, you must raise kids in the proper way.

>>Serious disrespect for or disobedience to parents, superiors or authorities Which superiors or authorities? Corrupt politicians? Compromised clergymen

One is not compelled to obey unjust directives, but one is compelled to respect the office... even if the occupant is a miscreant.

>> Excessive tattoos Why is this a mortal sin?

The body is the Lord's temple... You shall not disfigure it. I'm not sure what constitutes "excessive" though.

>>Masturbation [/eye rolling]

Well, it certainly does lead to lusting in one's heart, doesn't it.

>>This is a MORTAL sin?

No, it's a grave sin. If it is done deliberately, without addiction, in free will, and in full knowledge that it is a grave sin, it is a mortal sin. A mortal sin is willfully rejecting God's plan for you. God intends marriages to be fruitful, and for sex to restricted to marriage. (if God doesn't intend a marriage to be fruitful, he would not have the sex result in a pregnancy!)

>> Yes, pirating computer software and slavery are both equal sins. I see that now.

Mortal sins are mortal not because of the harm they do to others, but because they constitute a deliberate rejection of God's will. (again, some of these sins may be, under certain situations, merely grave.)

>>Oh Lord is that stupid. Is this the official position of the Catholic Church???

No. The author clearly believes, however that D&D leads to unholy behaviors. Keep in mind, these are venial sins. Venial sins are sins which may open the door to mortal sin. If Suzy has sex with guys at a frat party because she's drunk off her *ss, having sex is a mortal sin. Having gotten drunk and putting herself in a situation of impaired judgment is a venial sin.

>> Excessive use of the internet.

Oops.. bye!

[Blessed]

And again, you are confusing Catholicism with the sins of some Catholics

No. I was speaking of the Catholic hierarchy's sins and wondering how you can depend so heavily on the fruit of a poison tree.You deny the ability of a spirit filled christian to interpret scripture but blindly do nothing to prune the corrupt theologians you rely on to interpret God's word for you.

[dangus]

>> So none of your Bishops condone Gay Priest?

None condone a priest disobeying his vow of celibacy, under any circumstance. If they do in their heart, they keep quiet about it on the record, which is what we're discussing.

>> None of your Bishops have endorsed Pro-abortion canidates?

None should endorse any candidates. (I do remember a case of the Bishop of Hartford endorsing Joe Lieberman the first time he ran, precisely because Lieberman *claimed* he was pro-life.)

>>Anulments for rich Catholics are not a function of answering a few questions the right way(wink,wink)?

If so, the couple who receive the annulment are guilty of lying to the church, and their annulment is invalid in the eyes of God.

I remind you, I'm not saying there aren't disobedient bishops, or bishops who wink at immorality. One only needs to look at Cardinal Law to find a bishop who professed orthodoxy but tolerated all manners of evil. But when it comes to teaching the Catholic doctrine, they will not contradict it, or they will be disciplined.

[polemikos]

the Catholic hierarchy's sins and wondering how you can depend so heavily on the fruit of a poison tree.You deny the ability of a spirit filled christian to interpret scripture but blindly do nothing to prune the corrupt theologians you rely on to interpret God's word for you.

Your mistake is in assuming that the tree is poisoned, when in fact, as I have pointed out repeatedly, there are only some dead branches on a very healthy tree. You assume the deadwood is not being pruned, yet you demonstrate that you don't understand the pruning process. You claim that corrupt theologians are interpreting scripture for us, yet you provide no example, and as shown above the teachings of the Catholic Church can be traced all the way back to the earliest church.

If the Church established by Christ was as unhealthy as you claim, it would have fallen long ago. Yet the miracle that is the Catholic Church remains and grows. Denominations start and falter. Protestant teachings change and fall. Kings and dynasties come and go. And still, the chair of Peter remains.

Shall I follow the teachings of Ignatius, Polycarp and Justin Martyr, some of whom were taught directly by the Apostles, or shall I follow some novelty of the 16th or even 20th century? I know where my vote must go.