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To: third double; RnMomof7
A couple of additional aspects of the incredibly rich discourse of John 6:

When Jesus speaks of eating his flesh in the latter verses (Jn 6:54,56-57) the greek word for "eat" is trogo, which means "to GNAW, to CHEW" which is not the language of a metaphor.

Also, in John 6:60 (Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?) the listeners obviously understand Jesus in the literal sense. In the next verse, John 6:61, Jesus confirms this asking if they are offended. And then in John 6:66 (666) these followers who understand Jesus literally walk away from our Lord. The only place in the NT where Jesus loses followers for a doctrinal reason.

Of special note is what Jesus does NOT do. In all his other preachings, if there is confusion, Jesus explains his meaning. But here, Jesus lets followers depart from him. Would Jesus let a follower leave over a misunderstanding?

Is the Eucharist a "hard saying"? Is the Real Presence hard to discern? Absolutely. But it is also such an incredible gift.
55 posted on 11/04/2003 9:28:12 AM PST by polemikos (sola scriptura creat hereseos)
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To: polemikos
When Jesus speaks of eating his flesh in the latter verses (Jn 6:54,56-57) the greek word for "eat" is trogo, which means "to GNAW, to CHEW" which is not the language of a metaphor.

"Not the language of a metaphor," eh? Hmm... I guess I'll have to chew on that one for a while.

58 posted on 11/04/2003 9:35:38 AM PST by newgeezer (fundamentalist, regarding the Constitution AND the Holy Bible, i.e. WORDS MEAN THINGS)
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To: RnMomof7; third double
The Bible is forthright in declaring the Real Presence in the Eucharist (1 Cor 10:16–17, 11:23–29; and especially John 6:32–71).

And to go back to the earlier comment about historical realities, the early Church Fathers interpreted these passages literally. In summarizing the early Fathers’ teachings on Christ’s Real Presence, renowned Protestant historian of the early Church J. N. D. Kelly, writes: "Eucharistic teaching, it should be understood at the outset, was in general unquestioningly realist, i.e., the consecrated bread and wine were taken to be, and were treated and designated as, the Savior’s body and blood" (Early Christian Doctrines, 440).

Just one of dozens of writings on this subject by early church fathers:
"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" -- Ignatius, Letter to the Romans, 7:3 [A.D. 110]

Here we have Ignatius, an immediate disciple of the Apostle John, who learned at the feet of John, reaffirming the Real Presence.

The Real Presence is something that has been held as true from the very beginning of the church. Do you appreciate what that means?
65 posted on 11/04/2003 10:01:42 AM PST by polemikos (Ecce Agnus Dei)
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To: polemikos
Also, in John 6:60 (Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?) the listeners obviously understand Jesus in the literal sense. In the next verse, John 6:61, Jesus confirms this asking if they are offended. And then in John 6:66 (666) these followers who understand Jesus literally walk away from our Lord. The only place in the NT where Jesus loses followers for a doctrinal reason.

Of special note is what Jesus does NOT do. In all his other preachings, if there is confusion, Jesus explains his meaning. But here, Jesus lets followers depart from him. Would Jesus let a follower leave over a misunderstanding?


If you continue to read John 6, you will see that Jesus does ultimately explain His words to His disciples (after the crowds had left).

Jesus often left the multitudes in confusion in regard to His teachings, while He later took time to explain His teachings to His disciples. At some point, His disciples asked Him about this ...
Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
In keeping with this particular modus operandi, as explained by Jesus, he proceeds to explain to His disciples the meaning of His words in John 6:54,56-57 ...
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

83 posted on 11/04/2003 10:47:14 AM PST by Quester
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To: polemikos; CCWoody; Calvinist_Dark_Lord; Jean Chauvin; Frumanchu; Wrigley; CARepubGal
A couple of additional aspects of the incredibly rich discourse of John 6: When Jesus speaks of eating his flesh in the latter verses (Jn 6:54,56-57) the greek word for "eat" is trogo, which means "to GNAW, to CHEW" which is not the language of a metaphor.

It also means simply to eat..but your response tells me two things..1) The Catholic Church taught error for many years as it was taught never to "chew" the host...those folks must all be in Hell as they never did Gnaw..

and 2) I have reproved fellow Protestants for saying Catholics gnaw on the kidneys of Christ..I guess they are right..I owe them an apology .

BTW there is no reason why that word would not be used in a metaphor . It was the desire of Christ to shock the hearers and to drive off the chaff..

Also, in John 6:60 (Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?) the listeners obviously understand Jesus in the literal sense. In the next verse, John 6:61, Jesus confirms this asking if they are offended. And then in John 6:66 (666) these followers who understand Jesus literally walk away from our Lord. The only place in the NT where Jesus loses followers for a doctrinal reason.

Please read the scripture with clarity . In John 6: 60 and John 6:61 the reaction of the crowd was the suggestion of a Jew breaking the law and eating flesh and drinking blood. The murmured about this among themselves..BUT They did not leave over that . What drove them away where the words between verses 60 and 66..what were they ?

Jhn 6:63   It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. He just said His words were LIFE, not the works of men..

   Jhn 6:64   But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

     Jhn 6:65   And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. </

A shocking thought for those that believed in salvation by their WORKS

   Jhn 6:66   From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

They did not leave with the discourse on the bread..they grumbled ...
But it was the teaching on Election that drove them away. They could not work their way to heaven by the law. That is what caused them to leave

Of special note is what Jesus does NOT do. In all his other preachings, if there is confusion, Jesus explains his meaning. But here, Jesus lets followers depart from him. Would Jesus let a follower leave over a misunderstanding?

Quite the opposite..Jesus was very clear..THAT is what drove them away

Is the Eucharist a "hard saying"? Is the Real Presence hard to discern? Absolutely. But it is also such an incredible gift.

Quite the opposite..to a law based people that wanted to work their way to heaven. They did not have to surrender their will or repent of their sins..all they had to do is worship the host as their savior

124 posted on 11/04/2003 12:30:43 PM PST by RnMomof7
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