BRUCE ALMIGHTY: Atheism's Critique of Arminianism

[connectthedots]

We disagree with Spurgeon far less than you do, my friend.

That may or may not be a fair statement.

[connectthedots]

Our disagreement is with Spurgeon on his interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:4.Let's be honest about this, ctd.

Our disagreement? Do you have a mouse in your pocket? Do you pretend to speak for others?

Are you claiming that 1 Tim 2:14 has no meaning when it comes to the matter of unconditional election; or don't you know that predestination encompasses both Total Depravity and Unconditional Election?

If you can't figure this out, you you have no business on these threads.

[RnMomof7]

They recognize the apparent (but not actual) contradictions in the area of free will, predestination, and election; and they resolve them in a variety of ways.

Except Calvinist believe that indeed men have "free will" and they will always choose against God

[MarMema]

Let me run the Greek by our Greek deacon this weekend first. Being weak in Greek personally....
Thanks for your thoughtful reply, as usual.
From the hip I am inclined to think the word "desires" is a key one. After that I am completely clueless as to what "unlimited atonement" means and would be thrilled if you could explain it to me.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

But He does not preordain for anyone a definite moral state.

As Michael Townsend righteously posted earlier -- "Those whom God is said to have foreseen as having believed would not have believed, nor indeed could they have believed, if GOD had not bestowed His gift of Faith on them in the first place."

If faith is a gift from God, granted by His mercy, then the saving belief that flows from that gift is likewise all from God.

Thus all salvation is determined by God alone for His good pleasure.

"Deserves got nothing to do with it."

[MarMema]

But in the meantime I found this for chewing on.

[Revelation 911]

how was the movie doc ?

[Revelation 911]

(neener, neener, neener).

I'd have gotten away with it if it werent for those meddling kids

[2] You can tell whether your kids are elect or not the same way you can with anyone else. Since you can not see a new heart, you listen to their profession and look for the results of a new heart. Mine are 17 and 21 and I am confident they are elect.

I'm confident mine are as well......but what I continually return to (in my head) is the aborted unelect baby - help me (and the unwashed)understand just when a saving election occurs. From what Ive been told by some of my FR swarm friends is that I can be elect despite myself and my arminianism. Supposing that is accurate - I get the notion that there is a pre-disposition of my soul - which brings me back to the aborted unelect baby scenario - and I think this is where my brothers and sisters get hung up as well - so all huffing and puffing things calvin aside for the moment - spend a some time on an informative post and give me and the lurkers an education in election in contrast to

John 6:35 Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

- It sounds arnminian until verse 39, where I get the impression God has determined election - am I reading it right? - and from this - I'm led to think the truth lies somewhere in between

[3] Servetus burgers, believe it or not, are often served with [as] red herrings.

touche'....sometimes with a side of Arminian "bashed" potatos

[4] I am bummed at the FAIR mods. My FR namesake (WM Jr) claimed that he was God's gift to me. I replied, "I asked for hemorrhoids. God works in mysterious ways." The mods applied preparation H to my post.

I missed that gem

[5] Who says Arminians and Calvinist-Lites can't get along? We show they can. Blessings to you...

agreed - as well to you my friend

[xzins]

An honest arminian admits that salvation is a personal decision.

Likewise, they pray "Lord, bring unending conviction on my friend Bubba." They know that Bubba must choose for himself (Or "herself" IF you're in Louisianna.)

Some less than thoughtful arminians pray "Lord, save my friendette, Bubba" but they MEAN "Lord, bring unending conviction on the sweet lass."

[drstevej]

I find MOST Arminians are inconsistent rather than thoughtful. They fully believe in free will and yet still ask God to dave people and change their hearts. Few draw the fine distinction you present.

BTW, is the prayer "Lord, bring unending conviction on my friend Bubba." encouraging Divine harassment/ brainwashing on the order of a cult that bends minds via incessant progaganda?

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Nor can I bring anyone to Christ.

A refreshing reminder of why Protestants had no missionary activity prior to 1800.

[xzins]

Not since "conviction" is the essence of "prevenient grace."

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

If he's thirsty and you stick the water right under his nose, and continue to stick it there, then there's a near-certainty that can be seen.

[xzins]

yet still ask God to dave people

Sometimes typos are so much fun! :>)

Now are you DAVED before you're Steve'd, or do you have to choose DAVE for yourself?

[drstevej]

***I get the notion that there is a pre-disposition of my soul - which brings me back to the aborted unelect baby scenario - and I think this is where my brothers and sisters get hung up as well ***

BTW, we have had 6 miscarriages and so the issue isn't academic in our household. As stetd before on FR, I leave the destiny of infants in God's hands. David's statement about his son who died in infancy points to an expectation that he would see his son in heaven. How to extrapolate that verse is debatable, IMO. Instead, I am resolved to lay that decision in God's "In Box" without a definitive answer.

***- It sounds arminian until verse 39, where I get the impression God has determined election - am I reading it right? - and from this - I'm led to think the truth lies somewhere in between***

GIVE-DRAW-COME/BELIEVE-RAISE UP

These are the verbs and the sequence. Pretty darn Calvinistic, I'd say. BTW, verse 37 ought to wrinkle Arminian brows as well. ALL GIVEN to Him WILL COME, not MIGHT COME or SHOULD COME.

Come over to the "Dark Side" and be enlightened.

- the Compassionate Calvinist

[drstevej]

Steve'd by His power divine,
Steve'd to new life sublime!
Life now is sweet and my joy is complete,
For I’m Daved, Daved, Daved!

[xzins]

I'm a Steve, too.

N' I wanna be a Dave.

What must I do to be DAVED?

[drstevej]

***What must I do to be DAVED?***

Reform your views till you're Reformed.

Begin by saying, "I will not play the Servetus card, I will not play the Servetus card..."

[P-Marlowe]

I find MOST Arminians are inconsistent rather than thoughtful. They fully believe in free will and yet still ask God to dave people and change their hearts.

I find MOST Calvinists are inconsistent rather than thoughtful. They fully believe in unconditional divine election and unchangeable predestination and yet still ask God to dave people and change their hearts.

If people's hearts are going to be changed in a Calvinistic way, then they are not going to be changed at all. They will simply do what they were created to do in the first place at the time and place that God created their hearts to "change".

If the prayer of an Arminan that God intervene in the life of their friend Bubba to bring him to "Daving" faith is inconsistent, then isn't it equally inconsistent for a Calvinist to pray for someone's Dalvation, since there is literally nothing that such a prayer can possibly accomplish?

Why would any Calvinist pray for someone's Dalvation? "Lord predestine my friend bubba before the foundation of the Earth."

BTW I believe that you can pray that prayer now and God can STILL predestine him from the foundation of the earth.

[xzins]

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I can FEEL it...uhhh....it's comin' through, uhhhh....my eyes have seen the glory, uhhh....

Dave!

I'm DAVE!!!

[xzins]

BTW I believe that you can pray that prayer now and God can STILL predestine him from the foundation of the earth.

Excellent line, PM.

You need to post your "time & God" piece again.