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To: connectthedots
Some of the swarm are so arrogant as to claim that even the Calvinist Charles Spurgeon was wrong about predestination.

If we slavishly followed Spurgeon, you'd accuse us of worshipping Spurgeon. (You've done it with Calvin, as it is). Calvinists are in no way obliged to agree 100% with any human writer; we're all fallible.

22 posted on 12/01/2003 10:35:04 AM PST by jude24
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To: jude24; Calvinist_Dark_Lord; drstevej; OrthodoxPresbyterian; connectthedots; mcg1969; Tantumergo; ..
Calvinists are in no way obliged to agree 100% with any human writer; we're all fallible.

These sort of statements are logical fallacies.

Alternative A - If true, then your statement is NOT fallible. In which case we are obliged to agree 100% with your statement here (and who knows where else with you or others?) if we are desirous of being one with Truth.

Alternative B - If false, the statement goes up in a puff of smoke, since the falsification of the statement is that we are all infallible, but you just proved yourself fallible by making a false statement.

Alternative C - Objective truth is not knowable, so since it is not possible to determine truth, no one can possibly be called infallible, or alternatively, you could say everyone is infallible in his own perception of the multiplicity of truths.

I assume you reject the relativism of C, and recognize the amendments required by A. The only reasonable statement then would be:

"Calvinists are obliged to agree 100% with any human writer who writes the truth; we're all infallible when we are one with Truth."

Logically from this flow certain consequences:

1) At least sometimes humans are infallible in at least some of their writings and statements.

2) We are obliged as followers of Truth Himself to agree with these infallible statements when made.

3) Objective truths exist and can be perceived by us by which to judge statements so as to determine infallibility. Black is really black, and white is really white, up is up, and down is down. Therefore, there are not multiple truths. Black is not both black and white. Up is not both up and down.

4) Since objective truths exist, it is possible to formulate them into written creeds and definitions descriptive of reality which are objectively verifiable as true and non-contradictory. To thses statements, everyone must agree who wishes to be one with the truth.

5) Every human then needs to make a decision - Creed or Chaos? Recognition of objective truth or doctrinal and moral relativism?

6) It is written that Truth Himself prayed for one man: "But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not." (St. Luke 22.32). It is impossible that this has not come to pass, unless Jesus is not Truth.

7) Truth Himself promised the leaders of His Church:

"And I will ask the Father: and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever: the spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him. But you shall know him; because he shall abide with you and shall be in you. I will not leave you orphans: I will come to you. ... If any one love me, he will keep my word. And my Father will love him and we will come to him and will make our abode with him. ... These things have I spoken to you, abiding with you. But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you." (St. John 14.15-18, 23, 25-26)

It is impossible this has not come to pass unless Jesus is not Truth.

8) Truth also promised to his Apostles: "And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world." (St. Matthew 28.20) It is impossible this has not come to pass unless Jesus is not Truth.

So objectively, we can say that Jesus prayed that St. Peter's faith would never fail, and promised the availability and guidance of Himself and the Holy Spirit to His Apostles so long as they abode in Him.

Is not the Holy Ghost guiding the Bishops who succeeded the Apostles? "Take heed to yourselves and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the Church of God which he hath purchased with his own blood." (Acts 20.28)

If the Holy Ghost is guiding the Church, how can it ever be in error? How can its Creed be chaos? How can it not be knowable and recognizable objectively and outwardly?

How could the Church have fallen into error and needed a Calvin to come along and rediscover the truth? Are Christ's words of promise not true? Did Christ and the Holy Spirit leave the Church for some time?

83 posted on 12/02/2003 6:46:42 AM PST by Hermann the Cherusker
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