Extent of abuse cases staggering, official says [Pilla to release "shocking" numbers]

Cleveland Plain Dealer ^ | 01/20/04 | Joel Rutchick and James F. McCarty

[malakhi]

Reader, does all this help you understand what bishops such as Clark and Hubbard and Pilla mean by the "lay-run church.

By "lay-run" they mean "gay-run"?

[johnb2004]

If you are good with building fires from wood, at skip-tracing, or cross-examination, we are accepting new members. One never knows when Rome will call us into action. If only.Where is the sign up sheet?

[ninenot]

BlackElk, DrSteveJ, CatholicFamilyAssociation and I are (I think) the only currently active members. pinging.

[ArrogantBustard]

By "lay-run" they mean "gay-run"?

That appears to be a correct assessment. Pilla seems to have turned the Diocese of Cleveland into a refuge for all manner of perversion and "New-Age" idolatry.

Does the TTGC require the services of a design engineer? Racks, Thumbscrews, etc.?

[johnb2004]

That sort of nuclear war would be intolerable. Sure, the Church would be left standing--but if it cost several million Faithful who left in disgust, cui bono?? I hate to beat a dead horse, but the above is my point. I am concerned about losing many faithful. Which would be worse? Rome taking a stand and calling the Truth the Truth or quietly doing things while millions are taught error? Do you think I overstate?

[saradippity]

Our "educated culture" where "enlightened" ones control the education system dellights in giving the message you received. That message is that persons are,"required to form our own consciences appropriately".

This woould be fine if the messengers then proceeded to direct persons to places where correct formation can take place and furthered.But they don't,the messenger turns into the purveyor of formation,which they are not,especially to Catholics.

Catholics believe and the Church teaches that the Church is here to form consciences according to the teachings of Christ,who established the Church for that purpose,among others.I would bet that consciences formed by a persons appropriately informing themselves,is one of the root causes of the problems besetting the modern world.

I'll never forget reading something from Thomas Paine to the effect that he turned to "the church in my mind" to make a decision. I never again looked at him as anything but a threat to an ordered world.

[johnb2004]

You are preaching to the choir. My point is that just because many are taught lies by priests does not give them a free pass. Our culture is educated...ie they can read and have access to all types of info...so they can find the TRUTH if they want.

I have read much by dissenters who claim that they are "adults" and "educated" therefore the Church should let them make up their own minds about...contraception, homosexual sex, etc. My point is that if they are educated they can see what Truth truly is.

Anyhoo, originally I was attempting to assert that many souls may be lost do to the Vatican not cracking down on dissent. Perhaps I am in error. I am open to correction.

[johnb2004]

I recently posted this here it is from EWTN:
Conscience is NOT the same as your opinions or feelings. Conscience cannot be identical with your feelings because conscience is the activity of your intellect in judging the rightness or wrongness of your actions or omissions, past, present, or future, while your feelings come from another part of your soul and should be governed by your intellect and will. Conscience is not identical with your opinions because your intellect bases its judgment upon the natural moral law, which is inherent in your human nature and is identical with the Ten Commandments. Unlike the civil laws made by legislators, or the opinions that you hold, the natural moral law is not anything that you invent, but rather discover within yourself and is the governing norm of your conscience. In short, Conscience is the voice of truth within you, and your opinions need to be in harmony with that truth. As a Catholic, you have the benefit of the Church's teaching authority or Magisterium endowed upon her by Christ. The Magisterium assists you and all people of good will in understanding the natural moral law as it relates to specific issues. As a Catholic, you have the obligation to be correctly informed and normed by the teaching of the Church's Magisterium. As for your feelings, they need to be educated by virtue so as to be in harmony with conscience's voice of truth. In this way, you will have a sound conscience, according to which we you will feel guilty when you are guilty, and feel morally upright when you are morally upright. We should strive to avoid the two opposite extremes of a lax conscience and a scrupulous conscience. Meeting the obligation of continually attending to this formation of conscience will increase the likelihood that, in the actual operation or activity of conscience, you will act with a certain conscience, which clearly perceives that a given concrete action is a good action that was rightly done or should be done. Being correctly informed and certain in the actual operation of conscience is the goal of the continuing formation of conscience. Otherwise put, you should strive to avoid being incorrectly informed and doubtful in the actual judgment of conscience about a particular action or omission. You should never act on a doubtful conscience.

[Polycarp IV]

Hmmm...TTGM. Yep, I'd consider myself a charter member. I'm good with administering surgically precise "encouragement" to repent (being a doctor AND a former night club bouncer.)

[Desdemona]

You aren't wrong. What ninenot had to say somewhere above about the termites or some other insidious bug, is probably about as close to the mark as you are going to get.

The dissenters had reached some pretty lofty heights in the church and this pope has outlasted them. Once they were gone, JPII has been able to make his moves and is consistently putting orthodox men in place of the termites. Considering the death of his predecessor (the Divine Veto theory is in question), JPII knew what he was facing if he cracked skulls too fast.

As to the will of the people to seek the truth - some of us have recently told our parents what piss-poor catechesis we received in Catholic schools and in parish religion school. Our faith instruction was entrusted to the church and the termites made sure that we never received it, thus destroying a lot of faithful hearts. Some of us have parents who now blame themselves for this because they never picked up on it.

Rome, when it comes to this sort of thing, has very little control. It's up to the bishops to see that the flocks are catechized properly. That's the way it's set up. As the more orthodox bishops take office, things should begin to change.

The one thing that is striking about the bishops currently being elevated is that they all have direct ties to Rome in that they've all spent time there. These are the men JPII trusts.

It hasn't always been a bed of roses, no, but things are looking up. Have Faith.

[saradippity]

I certainly am not arguing with anything you have said, but instead I was trying to ezplain why your unhappiness with Rome's inaction may not be as justified as you think it is. I was trying to explain why it may be much more difficult to act against "ABUSIVE CLERGY" than you would like.

You are not staying on point which causes me to wonder where you are coming from. If you follow your comments on this thread you will be able to see what I mean.

Rather than respond with two posts,I will conclude this post with a comment about your post to me regards EWTN's column about conscience. My comment is,that is exactly what I said;go to the Church to inform your conscience,that's one of the reasons Christ established it.

[ninenot]

Hey!! GREAT!! Some of T. Torque's equipment has been damaged, or was lost. We will need replacements for a good deal of miscellaneous parts and/or whole goods.

Of course, we expect the designs to comport with Best Practices, rendered in a D-F-M mode, and in both English and Metric measures.

Even better if they are on s/ware which can be plugged into manufacturing machinery so it's one-touch and MADE!!

[ninenot]

Rome has consistently called the Truth the truth. Rome has consistently issued guidelines, norms, encyclicals, letters, bulls, etc., etc., etc.

Although certain Roman curial officials occasionally stick their feet where they don't belong, there's NEVER been a dogmatic/doctrinal error.

And, evidently, the judgment has been made that Rome will keep doing what it is doing--and more will become evident as the texts of the Mass are re-translated to reflect the original Latin and more norms are instituted for proper worship.

Will Bishops, priests, and laity continue to disobey? Yup.

[ArrogantBustard]

We'll have to import all the old drawings into AutoCAD, and redesign for modern materials, or to cover for missing details. We can manufacture prototypes by hand, but given the scale of the problem I'd like to set up a CNC operation to mass (heh heh) produce them.

I bet we could even get ISO9002 cert. on the whole process!

[Desdemona]

You all might consider industrial sized mirrors positioned so that the sun shines directly into propped open eyes.

(somebody just opened a glass door and yours truly still can't see.)

[ArrogantBustard]

Mirrors ... Mirrors ... Yes!

I think we'll need a huge Cassegrain telescope, so these characters can see the Truth from very far away.

[ninenot]

I know a plastic rapid-proto/one-off proto-to-sample shop owner who's looking for things to do.

AutoCad 9.0 is nice--but what about the McDonnell-Douglas system Chrysler uses?

I don't want ISO. I want QS. Some of this stuff has wheels and other moving parts which better fits QS cert. models.

Oh, by the way--we don't have any of the original drawings, either. You'll have to free-form them.

[ninenot]

Oooohhhh...nice. But why into the eyes? Why not a full-body treatment. Toasty, warm---sort of a preview.

[ArrogantBustard]

but what about the McDonnell-Douglas system

Dunno... Talk to me. We're still setting up shop.

we don't have any of the original drawings, either.

Not engineering drawings in the modern sense, but plenty of period woodcuts, pen&ink, etc. that we can use as a starting point. Racks, thumbscrews, stocks, pillories, ducking stools ... it's all pretty well documented. The real trick is going from those crude sketches to a proper, dimensioned drawing of a design that actually works...

[Desdemona]

But why into the eyes? Why not a full-body treatment. Toasty, warm---sort of a preview.

Greaze 'em up with baby oil ahead of time? Sure. Otherwise all you're doing is frying retinas.