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To: NYer
Now here is my question for you. How do you accept the long time period between baptismal regeneration and the seal of the Holy Spirit? Does that mean the infant is without the Holy Spirit until they have confirmation?

And how does baptism also confer church membership in your church, as it does in ours?

17 posted on 02/01/2004 8:03:05 AM PST by MarMema
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To: MarMema
A quick non-referred answer about conferring the Holy Spirit ... He is conferred in Baptism as well as later Sacraments.

I have always questioned the fear of physical contamination through the communal Chalice, etc. ... as the contents of that Chalice are the Body and the Blood of Jesus Christ. It seems like a simple act of FAITH to me. Great questions, though, Marmema.
18 posted on 02/01/2004 8:28:12 AM PST by AKA Elena (Seldom actively participating, but ALWAYS reading and thinking and coming to conclusions!)
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To: MarMema; AKA Elena
How do you accept the long time period between baptismal regeneration and the seal of the Holy Spirit? Does that mean the infant is without the Holy Spirit until they have confirmation?

Elena is right ... these are good questions.

A priest once told me that the proper order of the sacraments should be - Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Reconciliation. And, indeed, the Catechism of the Catholic Church lists them in precisely that order.

The CCC on the Sacrament of Baptism

IN BRIEF

1275 Christian initiation is accomplished by three sacraments together: Baptism which is the beginning of new life; Confirmation which is its strengthening; and the Eucharist which nourishes the disciple with Christ's Body and Blood for his transformation in Christ.

1276 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you" (Mt 28:19-20).

1277 Baptism is birth into the new life in Christ. In accordance with the Lord's will, it is necessary for salvation, as is the Church herself, which we enter by Baptism.

1278 The essential rite of Baptism consists in immersing the candidate in water or pouring water on his head, while pronouncing the invocation of the Most Holy Trinity: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

1279 The fruit of Baptism, or baptismal grace, is a rich reality that includes forgiveness of original sin and all personal sins, birth into the new life by which man becomes an adoptive son of the Father, a member of Christ and a temple of the Holy Spirit. By this very fact the person baptized is incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ, and made a sharer in the priesthood of Christ.

1280 Baptism imprints on the soul an indelible spiritual sign, the character, which consecrates the baptized person for Christian worship. Because of the character Baptism cannot be repeated (cf. DS 1609 and DS 1624).

1281 Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized (cf. LG 16).

1282 Since the earliest times, Baptism has been administered to children, for it is a grace and a gift of God that does not presuppose any human merit; children are baptized in the faith of the Church. Entry into Christian life gives access to true freedom.

1283 With respect to children who have died without Baptism, the liturgy of the Church invites us to trust in God's mercy and to pray for their salvation.

1284 In case of necessity, any person can baptize provided that he have the intention of doing that which the Church does and provided that he pours water on the candidate's head while saying: "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

Now, the following, also from the Catechism, may better explain the difference betwen Eastern and Western Rites.

Two traditions: East and West

1290 In the first centuries Confirmation generally comprised one single celebration with Baptism, forming with it a "double sacrament," according to the expression of St. Cyprian. Among other reasons, the multiplication of infant baptisms all through the year, the increase of rural parishes, and the growth of dioceses often prevented the bishop from being present at all baptismal celebrations. In the West the desire to reserve the completion of Baptism to the bishop caused the temporal separation of the two sacraments. The East has kept them united, so that Confirmation is conferred by the priest who baptizes. But he can do so only with the "myron" consecrated by a bishop.[100]

1291 A custom of the Roman Church facilitated the development of the Western practice: a double anointing with sacred chrism after Baptism. The first anointing of the neophyte on coming out of the baptismal bath was performed by the priest; it was completed by a second anointing on the forehead of the newly baptized by the bishop.[101] The first anointing with sacred chrism, by the priest, has remained attached to the baptismal rite; it signifies the participation of the one baptized in the prophetic, priestly, and kingly offices of Christ. If Baptism is conferred on an adult, there is only one post-baptismal anointing, that of Confirmation.

1292 The practice of the Eastern Churches gives greater emphasis to the unity of Christian initiation. That of the Latin Church more clearly expresses the communion of the new Christian with the bishop as guarantor and servant of the unity, catholicity and apostolicity of his Church, and hence the connection with the apostolic origins of Christ's Church.

III. THE EFFECTS OF CONFIRMATION

1302 It is evident from its celebration that the effect of the sacrament of Confirmation is the full outpouring of the Holy Spirit as once granted to the apostles on the day of Pentecost.

1303 From this fact, Confirmation brings an increase and deepening of baptismal grace:
- it roots us more deeply in the divine filiation which makes us cry, "Abba! Father!";[115]
- it unites us more firmly to Christ;
- it increases the gifts of the Holy Spirit in us;
- it renders our bond with the Church more perfect;[116]
- it gives us a special strength of the Holy Spirit to spread and defend the faith by word and action as true witnesses of Christ, to confess the name of Christ boldly, and never to be ashamed of the Cross:[117]
Recall then that you have received the spiritual seal, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of right judgment and courage, the spirit of knowledge and reverence, the spirit of holy fear in God's presence. Guard what you have received. God the Father has marked you with his sign; Christ the Lord has confirmed you and has placed his pledge, the Spirit, in your hearts.[118]

1304 Like Baptism which it completes, Confirmation is given only once, for it too imprints on the soul an indelible spiritual mark, the "character," which is the sign that Jesus Christ has marked a Christian with the seal of his Spirit by clothing him with power from on high so that he may be his witness.[119]

1305 This "character" perfects the common priesthood of the faithful, received in Baptism, and "the confirmed person receives the power to profess faith in Christ publicly and as it were officially (quasi ex officio)."[120]

* * * * *

My biggest complaint with regard to administering the Sacrament of Confirmation in the Latin Church, would be that the age is left up to the discretion of each bishop. Here in Albany, the bishop has determined it should be 11th grade - age 16/17.

My daughter was supposed to make her Confirmation last year (technically in April of this year). She dropped out of the program after completing only 2 classes. I had been asked by the pastor to teach one of the classes (not my daughter's) but she was apparently embarassed not by me but that her peers would talk about me behind my back. I was between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand, I had made a commitment to teach this class, yet my heart cried out to have my daughter complete her religious instruction.

In September, she joined the next Confirmation class. The pastor changed the format of the program so that they would complete their studies and preparation by November. She made her Confirmation and I have been saying Rosaries in Thanksgiving ever since.

19 posted on 02/01/2004 11:39:13 AM PST by NYer (Ad Jesum per Mariam)
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