The Humanity of John Calvin

1999 | Gregory Edward Reynolds

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

But seriesly, wouldn't that title go to Luther? Did I miss that reference up the line on this thread?

If i had to choose between the two, i'd lean toward Corin's view, not to minimise Calvin by any means!. Since none of us do, i'd have to say John Huss myself. The roots of the Reformation go back quite a way before 95 Thesies got nailed to the Church door in Wittenburg, some had very little to do with religion at all.

As per the main point of this article, People seem to forget that the Libertines, who were political enemies of Calvin, were ruling Geneva at the trial of Servetus, and They, not Calvin, found Servetus guilty and passed sentence.

Funny, nobody seems to blame them, fancy that...< /sarcasm>

[P-Marlowe]

Your pride gives you away.

I see you are attempting to ridicule and demean me. Ok, have at it. You accuse me of demeaning the thread, but which freeper have I ridiculed or demeaned on this thread? (the rules say no PERSONAL attacks, and, unlilke you, I have not personally attacked anyone here). I have merely pointed out that Calvin was obviously not "the most Christian Man of his age" and apparently that has set you off. Since you posted an article saying that he was the most Christian Man of his age, then I suppose that challenging that statement on the same thread would be fair game. don't you?

So do you think you can actually answer my points without resorting to personal insults and trying to bring up my mormon past, as if that is somehow relevant? I don't think you can. I don't think you want to .

[Corin Stormhands]

Well, quite frankly, everytime the Servetus fire gets stoked...so to speak...I keep thinking it's really just a diversion, no matter who brings it up.

It was a different place, a different time a different mindset.

I don't think we can fully understand it outside that context. And I don't think it diminishes Calvin's work.

I don't have to agree with everything Calvin said to respect the significance of his work.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Interestingly, a google on "father of the Reformation" certainly turns up a majority of Luthers, but also some Augustines, Wycliffes and the occasional Knox, as in Scottish Reformation.

But I should have said "one of the fathers of the Reformation" and "the Theologian of the Reformation." At least according to google.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

You accuse me of demeaning the thread.

Thanks. I like it when my comments are clearly understood.

And your comment about "Starbucks" and "changing the subject" was likewise clearly understood.

I'm not trading quips with you, P-M. Have another mocha frappe and post whatever you want.

[AnalogReigns]

The common claim that "Calvin burned Servatus" has often been disproven--but it does take some explanation, which wasn't the purpose of the article. I'll try to give a (very) brief explanation.

Servatus was a highly intelligent and outspoken critic of organized religion of the day. Virtually everyone at that time believed religion and politics were inseparable (as they had always been up to then) and ideas of religious pluralism were unknown. As hard as it is for us moderns to conceive, heresy was seen as a direct threat to public order. Roman Catholic authorities of the day were regularly burning condemned heretics by the hundred (and soon thereafter, by the tens of thousands--the massacre of French Calvinists). This was, after all nearly 500 years ago.

Servatus had been twice condemned by a Roman Catholic court as a heretic (he denied the Trinity among other things) and had fled to Geneva, apparently knowing its (RELATIVE) tolerance. There he stayed unmolested by Calvin or the Genevan government for 2 or 3 months. Then one day, in Church, Servatus started shouting at Calvin as he preached, disputing him. For an already condemned heretic (on issues he would have known Calvin and the Genevans agreed with Rome on) this was suicidally stupid...

Servatus was immediately arrested, and the City authorities put him on trial--open heresy was after all a civil crime (remember, no concept of separation of church and state). It’s actually quite a mark of tolerance that Servatus was not arrested when he first came to Geneva....I'm sure they were hoping for repentance. Calvin supported the prosecution...after all, he was not a Jeffersonian liberal--such didn't exist yet--however, when condemned to be burned, Calvin argued that he should be executed in the most humane way of the day (beheading) not cruel burning. The City Fathers ignored Calvin’s advice. Apparently even the burning did not go well--as they had not burned anyone before, so didn’t get it right.

Geneva at the time had a 3 tier status of residents. You had citizens, who were those who were born there of important families born there, residents, those who may have been born there or lived there long enough to rise to the privilege of official residents, and finally resident aliens--those born elsewhere who had little or no rights. John Calvin was in the 3rd category. I believe toward the end of his life he was granted resident status. By no means was John Calvin ever the dictator of Geneva. Did the City Fathers respect and often do what he wanted....yes, however not always--as they even kicked him out for a few years, and did other things (like Servatus method of execution) Calvin didn't approve of.

"I find it a bit difficult to believe that a man who was supposedly friendly toward those who disagreed with him on theology would have several people who did not agree with him put to death over those disagreements."

Only Servatus was executed for heresy by the City Court of Geneva when Calvin was present. Within the same time frame other Christians--Catholic, Lutheran, and Anabaptist--in other places were killing people for religious reasons by the thousands and more.

FOR HIS ERA, John Calvin was indeed a tolerant man.

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

...and the occasional Knox, as in Scottish Reformation.

Here's where CDL gets wierd. i would consider Robert the Bruce to have started the Scottish Reformation in 1306 with the murder of John "the Red" Comyn on the Altar of the Church at Dumfries. The nature of the Murder (more like hand to hand combat) was such that it demonstrated that the Bruce was actually "sending a message" to the Pope about his lack of evenhandedness in dealing with Edward Longshanks. Bruce was excommunicated until 1322, and Papal Writ was null and Void in Scotland.

It is an interesting sequence of events that are a bit too off topic here to discuss, but i can mention it in other forums one of these days.

[RobbyS]

Calvin's Institutes was an amazing work especiallyfor a man relatively young and with limited theological schooling. We Catholics did not produce so able a polemecist until Cardinal Bellarmine fifty years later and Bellarmine was not his equal as a theologian. It took all the brillance of the Society of Jesus to counter his influence.

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

Well, quite frankly, everytime the Servetus fire gets stoked...so to speak...I keep thinking it's really just a diversion, no matter who brings it up.

i quite agree, with the possible exception of historical discussion purposes.It was a different place, a different time a different mindset.

Still instructive in demonstrating our depravity as a race (human). Imagine what others might have done in the same position.

I don't think we can fully understand it outside that context. And I don't think it diminishes Calvin's work.

Again, i'd have to agree.

I don't have to agree with everything Calvin said to respect the significance of his work.

The irony is that many who call themselves "Reformed" or "Presbyterian" don't even know what Calvin taught. i've never seen a Sunday School Class on the Institutes, never, not once. Even Catholics recieve rudimentary instruction in the Baltimore Catachism, but the Reformed aren't even aware of their history or beliefs. To be honest, i prefer the times when churches fought over doctrine, cause they focused on WHAT WAS IMPORTANT. The result was that all denominations spoke as a unified voice on Social issues. Now?? It's a wonder God hasn't spit us out of His mouth.

[RobbyS]

Tell them to forget "Calvinism" and go directly to his works. Even his doctrine of double predestination seems less "heartless" when one seek to knows what his whole vision. I do not claim really to know that, and what I know of much of that I reject, but I see him as a man committed to knowing the truth.

[HarleyD]

"Calvin could have prevented the murder of Servetus by not conspiring to conduct a fraudulent trial. The council was a rubber stamp for Calvin so as to give an 'air of legitimacy' to Calvin's tyranny. What Calvin may or may not have said publicly has no bearing on what went on behind the scenes."

These are bold claims and are not substantiated by what numerous independent articles report. I would suggest you examine why you seem to have such animosity against this man.

[HarleyD]

"And it is highly presumptuous for the author of the above article to presume that people ought to refer to the man Calvin as the "Most Christian Man of his age."...If stating that Calvin was not the most Christian man of his age is tearing apart the character of a godly man, then I am guilty. But for those who claim he was, then you must refute the evidence of his failings and the burden of proof that he was the most Christian man of his age belongs to you. So, prove it."

I don't know why I would have to prove this claim-I didn't make it. If the author feels that way fine. If he wants to say wonderful things about Calvin that OK to. If he said wild animals would come each day to help him clean his house I would probably draw the line.

Only God knows what impact on Christian history Calvin had.

"Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing." 1 Thes 5:11

;O)

[Lexinom]

As long as our understanding is darkened by sin, there will, alas, be divisions. They will be resolved only the great Author and Finisher, who will wipe every tear on the other side. The best we can hope for this side of eternity is for governments to allow the church to continue in dignity and peace.

[Vernon]

Someone recently asked a question about how many had moved from a Calvinistic position to a more Arminian. While I have no idea as far as this forum is concerned, let me give you a quote from Dr. William W. Adams, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, and Associate Professor of A. T. Robertson:

"Let it be remembered that, less than a hundred years ago, all five cardinal points of Calvin's system of theology generally prevailed among Baptists, as theological textbooks of the times will confirm. Today, only one point remains to any appreciable extent among Baptists, inevitable perseverance, and there is growing evidence that Baptists are increasingly questioning this last vestige of the central core of Calvin's system of theology. Our only legitimate concern in all of this is, What saith the Scripture?"

While there remains strong bastions of Calvinism, the collapsing numbers indicate a dire future.

[drstevej]

***Our only legitimate concern in all of this is, What saith the Scripture?***

Choose One:
[A] Salvation is of the Lord.
[B] Jesus left us the soap.

[drstevej]

Notice how much attention Servetus gets and how little attention (none actually) the other martyrs of the era chronicled by Foxe and Van Braght get.

Why the fixation on Servetus? It's not because they care about him or martyrdom... they're just seeking a club to whomp Calvinism.

Sad really.

[Corin Stormhands]

The irony is that many who call themselves "Reformed" or "Presbyterian" don't even know what Calvin taught. i've never seen a Sunday School Class on the Institutes, never, not once.

Hmmm...I was only part of a Calvinist church for about three years, and never fully "GRPL material." I don't recall a reference to the Institutes either. In the membership class we did a pretty thorough read of the shorter catechism. And we discussed in detail the TULIP.

So my experience is limited. Still, that church did a fairly thorough job of expressing the doctrine, if not specifically tracking it back to the Institutes.

[xzins]

I've traveled extensively throughout Germany, and also have had forays into Belgium, Holland, Austria, and Poland.

I believe that the cathedrals, the castles, and the fortresses of Europe reveal essentially the same thing, and none of is really religious in nature. They reveal the remarkable power over the people that was held by the aristocracy.....including the "princes" of the church (who often were blood-relatives of the princes of the government.)

As I traveled through those monuments, I remarked OFTEN to my wife, "these people had entirely too much money." And they did. The opulence is awe-inspiring these many centuries later; but for the everyman of that day, they were absolute markers regarding "his" place in the grand scheme of aristocratic life.

I imagine they would have been good "jobs programs" if they had even been used that way. There are, however, too many stories of builders, workers, and designers bereft of their rightful pay for the greater "glory" of God and King.

[Vernon]

Choose One: [A] Salvation is of the Lord. [B] Jesus left us the soap.

Interesting. Salvation is ALWAYS of the Lord - but NEVER without or against our choice. The implication of the condescending choice you give is a typical aberrant response when faced with the fact we don't like. The quote I gave was from a Calvinist theologian!

[P-Marlowe]

The implication of the condescending choice you give is a typical aberrant response when faced with the fact we don't like.

Better watch it vern. With posts like that you could end up the 6th member of the PWAODSDNPOPTML's.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.