The Pelagian Captivity of the Church

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals ^ | R. C. Sproul

[P-Marlowe]

P-Marlowe has already admitted that, according to YOUR theology, God APPROVED of what Hitler was doing.

That's news to me. I do not believe that God approved. Indeed his nature would require disapproval. The killing was done in clear contradiction to God's commandments. So unless God didn't really mean it when he said, "Thou Shalt Not Murder", then he did not and could not "approve."

So show me the post where I said I thought God "approved." If you can't show it to me and the other posters and lurkers, then make a public apology and request that your post containing that libelous statement be removed.

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

Excuse me, we were discussing Acts 13:48. How about responding to that?

[P-Marlowe]

Excuse me, we were discussing Acts 13:48. How about responding to that?

'bout a nine on the ol' tension scale there, rube.

[A.J.Armitage]

You forget the context comes after as well as before, so your arguments have no force unless you somehow answer a simple question: Well then, what in the world does v. 13 mean?

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

So, when God permits Murder, is His Will to grant such Permission -- Imperfect?
No because it is in line with his ultimate will. That all things work together for good.

Alright, now you've introduced a new term. God's "Ultimate Will".

Keep spinning, Marlowe... I could be well moved, if I were as you. But I am constant as the Northern Star, of whose true fixed and resting quality there is no fellow in the firmament.

If it is God's Ultimate Will that Jerusalem should NOT Repent and be left desolate (Luke 13:34-35) "until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord", is His Ultimate Will in any way imperfect?

And if God's Ultimate Will is indeed Perfect, then has He not Perfectly Willed that Jerusalem should NOT Repent and be left desolate "until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord"?

If God's Ultimate Will is Perfect, then God has Ultimately, Perfectly Willed the Damnation of those whom He has Ultimately, Perfectly appointed to Damnation.

I Peter 2:7-8 -- Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

If it is God's Ultimate Will that certain individuals be damned; And if God's Ultimate Will is Perfect; then God has Perfectly Willed the damnation of certain individuals.

---

Of course, the matter is simplified when we realize that which you refer to as God's "Perfect Will", which should in many cases be more correctly called God's moral Commandments to Men, is but an aspect of his Ultimate, Perfect Will.

For example -- Paul declares in Acts 17 his mission to preach Repentance unto all the Gentiles. God has issued a Moral Command to All that they are under orders to Repent.

Acts 17:19-20 -- Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Of course, the Bible is adamant throughout Scripture that a Spiritually-Dead Man will never Believe and Repent, without the prior Regeneration of the Holy Spirit. And so, by His Causative Will, God does cause some men to Repent; and by His permissive Will, He does permit others to remain in UnRepentance.

All of which attends to the accomplishment of His Perfect, Ultimate Will -- to Save the Elect, and Damn the Reprobate.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Being unable to respond to my #284, you just blast out some snippet from the Catholic Encyclopedia?

LOL!! Thanks for playing.

[harbingr]

"In the nineteenth century, there was a preacher who became very popular in America, who wrote a book on theology, coming out of his own training in law, in which he made no bones about his Pelagianism...This man's basic thesis was, we don't need the imputation of the righteousness of Christ because we have the capacity in and of ourselves to become righteous. His name: Charles Finney,"

Is This the Same Charles Finney?...

'Why I Left Freemasonry'...By Charles G. Finney, D.D.

Excerpts:...
'When I was converted to Christ I had belonged to the Masonic Lodge in Adams, New York, about four years. During the struggle of conviction of sin through which I passed, I do not recollect that the question of Freemasonry ever occurred to my mind...
At that time I did not know how much I had been imposed upon by many of the pretensions of Masonry...
My new life instinctively and irresistibly recoiled from any fellowship with what I now regarded as "the unfruitful works of darkness..." The administration and taking of its oaths are unchristian and a violation of the positive command of Christ. And Masonic oaths pledge its members to some of the most unlawful and unchristian things:
1. To conceal each other's crimes.
2. To deliver each other from difficulty, whether right or wrong.
3. To unduly favor Masonry in political action and in business matters.
4. Its members are sworn to retaliate and persecute unto death the violators of Masonic obligations.
5. Freemasonry knows no mercy, and swears its candidates to avenge violations of Masonic obligations unto death.
6. Its oaths are profane, taking the Name of God in vain.
7. The penalties of these oaths are barbarous, even savage.
8. Its teachings are false and profane.
9. Its designs are partial and selfish.
10. Its ceremonies are a mixture of puerility and profanity.
11. Its religion is false.
12. It professes to save men on other conditions than those revealed in the Gospel of Christ.
13. It is wholly an enormous falsehood.
14. It is a swindle, obtaining money from its members under false pretenses.
15. It refuses all examinations, and veils itself under a mantle of oath-bound secrecy.
16. It is virtual conspiracy against both Church and State.

'...can a man who has taken, and still adheres to, the oath of the Royal Arch Mason be trusted to public office?...
He swears to espouse the cause of a companion of this Degree when involved in any difficulty, so far as to extricate him, whether he be right or wrong. He swears to conceal his crimes, MURDER AND TREASON NOT EXCEPTED. Is such a man bound by such an oath to be trusted with office? Is any man who is under a most solemn oath to kill all who violate any part of Masonic oaths, a fit person to be at large among men?
Ought Freemasons of this stamp to be fellowshipped in the Christian Church?

[Religion Moderator]

This thread has been moved to the backroom. Smite each other hip and thigh to your hearts' content.

or...

"Love one another as I have loved you."

[Corin Stormhands]

That's OK, Vern, cause P-Marlowe has already admitted that, according to YOUR theology, God APPROVED of what Hitler was doing.

Since we're in the SBR Woody, it appears that I am now clear to point out that your statement is a LIE.

And you know it.

[jimtorr]

Me too, but when I post Scriptures I am told that I am only "playing with words."

I was not referring to the scripture you posted, but how you used it, and you really should learn the difference.

There is no difference in meaning between "at the moment of creation" and "before the foundation of the world". They are both poetic devices, and both have been used interchangeably by numerous Christian writers.

To claim there is a substantive difference is intellectual pettifogery. It reminds me of arguments about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

I do not understand why you feel it neccesary to divert me into word games, or why I've fallen for it.

[Vernon]

Being unable to respond to my #284, you just blast out some snippet from the Catholic Encyclopedia?

No inability at all, just unwillingness to engage further in the Calvinistic endless cycle of twist, spinn, misinterpret, flame, and insult. I have seldom if ever met a Calvinist who was not most contentious, lacking even the most simple graces of civility let alone spiritual consciousness. One can read of the death of Servetus and get the distinct feeling that is such would practiced today if allowed by law, after all, God, according to some of them, made Hitler kill several million Jews.

God is not such a brute nor filled with such hatred, but a God of love, mercy, grace, and justice, who perfectly hates evil which is not part of his holiness. Evil was and is the set of the will of a created being against the creator, following the devices of their own imaginations, by which they have been and are being led astray.

I have no desire to engage in an endless debate that profits nothing but the captivity of a process that misinterprets and misapplies scripture to their eternal hurt.

[xzins]

God "approved" Hitler's actions in exactly the same manner as the Rich Father in Luke 15:12 "approved" the transfer of the Prodigal Son's inheritance to that son -- that is, he granted his permission (if the Rich Father had not approved the transfer, no funds would be disbursed). Not that the Rich Father considered the Prodigal Son's actions to be "good", but that the Rich Father did grant his Permission and approve the disbursement.

Let's parse this, then, and make a rule out of it.

He granted his permission for the prodigal son to make his own choices.

hmmmmmmmmm........sounds suspiciously like FREE WILL.

[xzins]

Ping to Marlowe's comments below: excellent enumeration of perfect, permissive, and ultimate wills of God.

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings,

Perfect will

and ye would not!

Permissive Will.

Luk 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate:

Consequence of failure to yield to God's perfect will

and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Accomplishment of His Ultimate Will.

[Frumanchu]

Impossible...you have all the answers, as do the dwindling number of Calvinists as people understand the parsing and twisting. The plain and simple sense of scripture is clear:

Acts 2:21: "Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved..."

Romans 10:13: "For, 'Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Speaking of twisting and parsing, you have just taken two conditional statements and READ INTO them the universal ability and opportunity of man to meet the condition. Apparently we need to add remedial logic to remedial English.

"Whosoever can defy gravity will not fall when he steps off a cliff"

Please explain to me how this statement is rendered untrue by your inability to meet the condition of defying gravity.

[Frumanchu]

Excuse me, we were discussing Acts 13:48. How about responding to that?

Yes. I'd like to hear an explanation. The English seems pretty clear. If it's being 'twisted' I don't see how.

[Revelation 911]

Woody. [sips Port and fades back ....

[Vernon]

According to you, there are no "conditional statements," all is foreordained, predestined, and unchangeable. There is, for your informatin, a difference in having logic however faulty it might be, and having absolutely no logic whatsoever. It would be helpful if you knew the difference.

[Vernon]

There are many Commentaries that will more than adequately explain the passage for those who are open to instruction. For those who are not, it is nothing more than the basis of an argument. I have responded and you apparently either missed, denied, or didn't recognize truth.

[Revelation 911]

Woody, I suggest we abandon this line of discussion.

translation: psssst, even though I resigned as grpl thread pope and speak in placid tones now to deflect the mods attention, the mod has cunningly seen our behavior here as contemptable and unrighteous in the Lords eye and we risk high voltage zotting if we continue

[Vernon]

Incidentally, your insults accomplish nothing.