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To: logos; betty boop; Alamo-Girl
Sorry for the delay. I was going to post a techinical refutation of Platonic dualism but I think I covered that enough for now.

that Christian dualism springs from the difficulty that most Christians have in realizing that they already participate in eternal life? In other words, that we tend to look forward to some unspecified future date and destination, failing to realize that we've already arrived now?

I'm not convinced that it springs from the ignorance most Christians have of thier present kingdom authority but rather Platonic dualism that has infested Christian theology is the cause of that lack of knowledge. Following Platonic theory we are just "hovering" between earth and heaven in some sort of synthetic no-mans land reaching for the sky while being pulled by some sort of evil grativational force toward the earth. With that sort of mindset it is only natural that the natural is considered evil.

34 posted on 02/17/2004 8:58:03 PM PST by lockeliberty (Heilsgeschichte)
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To: lockeliberty; Alamo-Girl; marron; unspun
I have never noticed that Plato was "dualistic" in his thinking. He seems to have been entranced by visions of Oneness, of Wholeness, with the divine ruler at the top of the hierarchy of Being. He got to the insight without the (direct) aid of Christ -- who was some four centuries in the future. I figure he did pretty well, all things considered. Certainly, he understood the idea of the Logos.... Or so it seems to me.

This site goes down soon for maintenance. Expanding these remarks will have to wait.

Meanwhile, thank you truly for sharing your thoughts.

36 posted on 02/17/2004 9:20:50 PM PST by betty boop (God used beautiful mathematics in creating the world. -- Paul Dirac)
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To: lockeliberty; betty boop; Alamo-Girl
I'm not convinced that it springs from the ignorance most Christians have of thier present kingdom authority but rather Platonic dualism that has infested Christian theology is the cause of that lack of knowledge.

Ah, I see I have not made myself crystal clear; let me clear that up.

I really wasn't speaking to the ignorance that many young Christians have concerning their present citizenship in the Kingdom of Heaven. I had more in mind those mature Christians who, knowing they already participate in eternal life, still are unable to live out the faith they proclaim.

I think the case has been made that everywhere Christianity has gone in the world it has taken on the patina of the new culture in which it finds itself. Clearly, looking only at the outward manifestations of the faith, there is a difference between "Western" Christianity and Christianity as practiced on the continent of Africa, or in middle China, as just two examples. We seem unable to pull our feet out of the muck of whatever corner of the world in which we find ourselves and walk the golden streets of heaven. Certainly the influences of Plato in first century Christendom are another example, but it doesn't seem to me that Plato should take the blame for the manifestations of Indio/Hispanic culture found in the faith as practiced in Central America.

I have become somewhat amused by the various attempts over the years by different sects, if you will, that have attempted to "return to the first century church", which itself was aculturized by the Mediteranean (sp) society in which it lived. I'm amused because, while I do think such attempts are valid and faithful, no one ever seems to want to go the extra step and practice the faith like the One who introduced it into the world in the first place, Jesus Christ Himself. Somehow the thought seems to be that "if we can trade our post-modern culture for the culture of first century Jerusalem and Rome, we'll be much better Christians". I doubt that's true; at best it's a trading of the culture we know for a culture we only think we know.

Perhaps it's because we are unable to practice Christianity as Christ did. Granted, it sure wouldn't be an easy task to undertake. When I read the gospels looking for Christ's manner and method of ministry, here is what I see:

He made no direct attempt to establish an institutional church anywhere or by any particular liturgy or doctrine. He made no mention of denomination, sect, cult, or derivation of faith at all. He established no dogma or doctrine, although I hasten to add that we humans immediately fashioned our own doctrines and attached them to His words just as soon as He was out of our presence. (I'm not saying there is no doctrine to be found in the gospels; I'm just saying that any there is, at best, indirectly alluded to rather than firmly established by our Lord.) So, how did Jesus "do ministry"?

Wherever He woke on any given day He set out along the Way; speaking, teaching, healing and otherwise dealing with whomever He met as He traveled. He seemingly gave no thought most of the time to what direction He traveled, nor did He often seem to have any particular destination in mind. Wherever He found Himself at night, He (presumably) found a place to sleep, from where the next morning He arose and did it all over again. He left no "house churches" in His wake, constructed no cathedrals or temples, and from all evidence gave very little thought to His earthly surroundings (we know He was very aware of the earth and all its glory, however, for it was the trappings of the earth which punctuated His parables).

The closest thing I can find to Jesus' model of ministry in history is the story of Johnny Appleseed, and I don't think that had quite the same goals in mind. I can't think of a single Christian known to history who followed His model of ministry. Perhaps some of the early Christian monks came closest, but I think it's telling that, by and large, they are unknown to history.

In short, I don't know of course, but I have to wonder if this (Jesus' ministry) isn't what Bonhoeffer was thinking about when he began talking about "religionless Christianity". And again, I hasten to add that I couldn't do it myself. I don't see how I could minister after the manner of Jesus ... and still have a wife and family. We "know" the glories of heaven, but we are unable to give up the comforts of the world. I think that is our dualism. Our heads are in the clouds, but our feet are stuck in the mud of everyday concerns.

If we are ever able to slough off the dualism which I think is a condition of our humanity, we will have to find a way to introduce our heads to our feet, so to speak, and I think that is only possible ... and barely at that ... through the avenue of our hearts. And if you must know, I see this forum as a microcosm of the problem; there are many here from practically all persuasions of Christianity who have filled their minds with the intricacies of Scripture, but who, from their manner of speaking to each other, give very little evidence that they have ever opened their hearts to Christ.

Long story short, in my view we are dualists because we are humans, and no matter how often we tell ourselves that we are citizens of heaven and only sojourners in the world we can't ever quite act like we truly and fully believe that.

Whether all that can be laid at the feet of Plato, I'll leave to bb. :)

39 posted on 02/18/2004 4:09:48 AM PST by logos
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