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Mel Gibson: $5 Mil to Fringe Church (FOX attacks "antiquated Catholic ideology")
| Friday, February 20, 2004
| By Roger Friedman
Posted on 02/20/2004 5:46:17 AM PST by Behind Liberal Lines
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I don't think he's denying that the Holocaust took place. He just questions some of the numbers and events that are accepted as gospel.
Oh, puh-leeze. This is an evasion-by-parsing that would make Bill Clinton blush.
posted on 02/20/2004 9:47:04 AM PST
Nobody would even care what he says except that it's a way of making his son look bad.
Frankly, what makes his son look bad is his own inability (or disinclination) to stand up on his hind legs and object to the old man's noxious garbage.
posted on 02/20/2004 9:48:44 AM PST
Never mind that his father only days ago.....
Yeah, yeah, yeah... We've heard it all before...
I certainly wouldn't want to be associated with anything my father says or does.
Apparently, many people feel the same about thier fathers as I do.
posted on 02/20/2004 9:49:22 AM PST
by It's me
If you want to believe that God prefers the mass in Latin, that's your prerogative.
Gibson's chapel has 70 members and attendance is by invitation only.
That's an "exclusive" church.
Gee, if I had a chapel in my back yard, I wouldn't want "lookie loos" either.
You know people would only come to see Mel. Leave him practice his faith in peace, for goodness sake. Who cares! He's not hurting anyone, is he??
posted on 02/20/2004 9:53:11 AM PST
by It's me
No one in the Catholic Church is empowered to build his own chapels...
I don't think that's entirely true. People have built chapels on their own property for years! The wealthy have done this for years. Look in Europe.
How about Catholic colleges? They are not neccessarily churces of the diocese but they are "legal."
posted on 02/20/2004 9:57:11 AM PST
by It's me
"Frankly, what makes his son look bad is his own inability (or disinclination) to stand up on his hind legs and object to the old man's noxious garbage."
Any time we attempt to judge another person's motives, we are walking on very thin ice.
Having said that, here's a potential alternative motive to Mel's refusal to publically 'object' in a strong fashion to his father's comments.
Perhaps Mel views God's commandment to honor your parents as more important than meeting the public's expectations about what he should or should not do.
posted on 02/20/2004 9:59:48 AM PST
I don't know about you, but I feel no need to go around publicly denouncing my own father when he says things I disagree with.
I wonder who the priest(s) is(are) who is saying the Masses at Gibson's church?
posted on 02/20/2004 10:02:05 AM PST
by It's me
To: It's me
Although Latin is the official language of the Roman Catholic Church, it is prohibited to say Mass in Latin in our Archdiocese!
posted on 02/20/2004 10:03:31 AM PST
(Beware of little expenses because a small leak will sink a great ship!)
To: olde north church
"I stopped going to Mass when I saw a woman, a teenage girl do a "guest spot" on the altar reading from the bible."
A girl (or woman) reading a passage from the bible as part of the service caused you to walk out?
Wow. You probably would have walked out of many an early New Testament church as well, since we know from scripture that prophesying and tongues speaking/interpretation of tongues are not gender specific gifts.
posted on 02/20/2004 10:04:23 AM PST
Which diocese is that?!
posted on 02/20/2004 10:04:27 AM PST
by It's me
Is Mel going to hell for not being in union with Rome?
Mel's salvation is Mel's business.
Then why does it matter where his church is?
posted on 02/20/2004 10:05:54 AM PST
by It's me
I feel no need to go around publicly denouncing my own father when he says things I disagree with.
Really, now, there is a difference between making a mistake and spewing venom. The former can be overlooked out of courtesy; the latter has (in Gibson's case) reached the point where the only available options are 1)objection or 2)tacit concurrence.
posted on 02/20/2004 10:07:22 AM PST
Since there is no inconsistency between the two (it would be easy enough to comply with both requirements with a weasel-free statement of love for the man and condemnation of the opinion), that excuse doesn't work.
posted on 02/20/2004 10:09:37 AM PST
"Since there is no inconsistency between the two"
Perhaps not in your mind, but you aren't Mel, and you won't be answering for to God on Mel's behalf on judgment day.
To judge the son as 'guilty' of anti-semitism because of the father's comments is unfair to say the least. Do you have documented evidence of anti-semitic comments Mel has made? If so, that would be a different issue.
posted on 02/20/2004 10:13:25 AM PST
So according to steve-b, Mel Gibson only has two "available options" - publicly denouncing his 85-year-old father, or accepting that steve-b thinks he's a Holocaust denier.
My guess is that Mel Gibson doesn't really care what steve-b thinks, but I guess we'll have to stay tuned.
Of course, that's your choice.
However, tradition always forms a very significant part of any religious belief system. Its important, as a matter of fact, in ANY organization, secular or religious. It provides a sense of identity to the members. In addition the Tridentine Mass is a very inspiring and moving ceremony. Even non-Catholics have said as much. The lay-out of the older churches with their statues, altar, rails, grand altars, etc, lent a sense of otherworldliness to the structure and helped elevate the viwer's thoughts to a non-material world. Start stripping away tradition and you loose adherents. Its a simple fact, and the number of Catholics who left after Vatican II'sinduced changes will attest to that.
The changes wrought by Vatican II would have appealed to Oliver Cromwell, who, along with his Puritan Adherents, viewed the subject very differently.
posted on 02/20/2004 10:16:39 AM PST
(GOD BLESS SENATOR McCARTHY!!!!)
Know what? I disagree with a lot of what my own folks have to say about this and that. They come from a different time and place. I expect that holds true of almost everyone, including Mel Gibson.
I don't see how it's any business of yours what he does about his, what I do about mine, or that you have any standing to demand that he do anything about his family, anyway. In a world of Hollywood, his family looks exceptionally wholesome.
I hope Mel cleans up, big time.
Er, the other option is to accept that any reasonable person will draw that conclusion from his evasion when Pops' noxious notions are raised.
How hard is it to say, "I love him, but he's wrong about this"?
posted on 02/20/2004 10:18:12 AM PST
Really? How do you explain these words of Paul?
"As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church."
-1 Cor. 14: 33b-35
posted on 02/20/2004 10:22:49 AM PST
("We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid" - Benjamin Franklin)
To: Behind Liberal Lines
What a tool. Just another hit on Christians. Fox is fair and balanced. I do want to state that. They have conservative viewpoints and then they have raving liberal same sex marrying dope smoking socialists. This must be from the left side of the building.
posted on 02/20/2004 10:24:20 AM PST
(Liberals are proof that public education has failed.)
This is such a red herring. Do you know any 85-year-old men? The ones I know are half gaga, very frail. Even if he's in good health, he's got one foot in the grave already.
The articles I've read all seem to have one agenda - they object to movie because it is a literal depiction of what is in the Gospels.
It seems to be politically correct these days to blame the Romans for the death of Christ, and to whitewash the actions of the Jews - NOT "the Jews" in general - but the very specific Jews described in the Gospels who wanted Christ to be executed for blasphemy.
As Gibson says, what they object to are the Gospels themselves.
So making Gibson look like a nut case is what they're after.
How about you? Do you object to the depiction in the Gospels of the actions of the Sanhedrin? Do you think that this is, in and of itself, anti-Semitism?
To: Blood of Tyrants
To the liberals, any church that insists on using the bible is "antiquated" and "fringe".
Not the way the "moderates" in the Episcopal Church use the bible.
posted on 02/20/2004 10:33:03 AM PST
(Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and most are right)
Very well articulated comment.
The only "acceptable" bigotry in the world today is anti-Christian.
posted on 02/20/2004 10:33:11 AM PST
"But ripping out altar rails, removing religious statues, turning around the altar, introducing "profane" music to services, and ending the Latin and the Tridentine Mass, destroyed a lot of the majesty of that faith.
Count me as one who disagrees with this position. I think you're talking about personal preferences in aesthetic matters"
"If you want to believe that God prefers the mass in Latin, that's your prerogative"
How about the rest of your quote? Do you really believe God (or Vatican II for that matter) called for the destruction of Catholic worship traditions?
posted on 02/20/2004 10:37:08 AM PST
To: Behind Liberal Lines
Matthew 5 11-12
11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
posted on 02/20/2004 10:39:21 AM PST
by Lost Highway
(The things of earth will grow strangely dim in the light of his glory and grace.)
Mel is following the Word of God, honor thy mother and thy father... he is not dishonoring him by correcting him publicly. "holocaust denial" is a neat word liberal overtones all in it... behind liberal lines is not attacking any religon, you are the one attacking, like you have something to prove. are you the irs or his accountant then how do you know the business was shady...i dont know and if he did build a church then more rich people need to be like him.
posted on 02/20/2004 10:40:39 AM PST
(support rape vote for a gun grabbing democRat)
I understand that you find the traditional Latin Mass more pleasing and that it is your personal preference. I do not believe that changing the language the mass is said in, etc., is contrary to the teachings of Christ.
I think a humble gathering of the devout worshipping in their own language - Aramaic - is exactly what happened at the Last Supper.
Thus, I do see some irony in Gibson's simultaneously making a movie where Christ speaks in the vernacular, but attending a church where the priest does not.
But I don't think it's any big deal. I am comfortable with the mass in English and the other changes made in Vatican II. I was very young when they occurred, don't have much invested in the old status quo.
To: Lonely NY Conservative
P.S. - I assume that your misattribution of the quote was a mistake made for the sake of brevity.
posted on 02/20/2004 10:45:26 AM PST
(John Kerry looks like . . . like . . . weakness.)
Mel is following the Word of God, honor thy mother and thy father... he is not dishonoring him by correcting him publicly.
The opposition is to the historicity of the Gospels themselves. It is anti-Christian bigotry disguised as a fear of anti-Semitism. It fits in with the liberal agenda to reduce faith to a common denominator wherein all belief-systems, Jew and Christian, can comfortably meld together.
To: af_vet_1981; steve-b; All
I asked upstream whether Jews object to the movie because it depicts, as is told in the Gospels, the Sanhedrin's involvement in the execution of Jesus? No answer, but I am very curious, wondering if perhaps someone who is Jewish would care to answer?
..........Roger Friedman's Comments............
Sorry, an Off Topic Comment: Nevermind Friedman when there are a number of Anti-Catholic FReepers.
posted on 02/20/2004 10:51:33 AM PST
(Thats my story, and I'm sticking to it.)
To: ultima ratio
I would like to hear the point of view of a Jew on this issue. It seems like Jews don't believe in Jesus, period, not even that He existed? That the Gospels are fictional?
I have not seen the movie but I do not object to a depiction of the Sanhedrin's involvement per se in the trial of Yeshua. The Romans picked the leadership of the occupied nation. I do not defend their betrayal of a Jew into the hands of wicked Gentiles. I object to what some people who "claimed the name" have done with that depiction in history. I object to Holocaust Denial and Antisemitism.
But vatican II did not direct ripping out altar rails, removing religious statues, turning around the altar, and introducing "profane" music to services. This is part of what I am referring to as traditional Catholic worship practices.
posted on 02/20/2004 11:08:22 AM PST
He's a wacky old man without much education who doesn't deserve the attention he's getting
That wacky old man without much education won $25,000 on "Jeopardy" in 1968. That's the money he moved his family to Australia on. He's not stupid or unknowledgable. He is, however, an autodidact, and they usually have huge blind spots somewhere.
Gibson, apparently in a cynical ploy, used the Pope to try to get an endorsement for his movie. The Pope leads an institution that Gibson no longer believes in.
Gibson screened the film for, and tried to get endorsement from many Christian and Jewish religious leaders. It is being sold through churches of all denominations... Many types Gibson himself doesn't follow.
To: Behind Liberal Lines
The gut-twisting anger coming from some quarters towards this film has, I posit, nothing whatsoever to do with Mel Gibson. These people really don't care what church Gibson supports or what Gibson's father said or didn't say. The same people hated this movie before the script was ever written, before anyone had screened the film, and before anyone accused the film of inciting anti-Semitism.
posted on 02/20/2004 11:19:28 AM PST
(Some things have to be believed to be seen)
Religious Freedom is for Everyone - Not just Minorities
Published on 1/7/2004
by TLP Staff
By Rabbi Daniel Lapin
Well, 2004 has arrived which means that dreaded C word is behind us. Put politely, the holiday season has passed. Having shopped in New York, Los Angeles, and Seattle lately and having listened to talk radio in each city I couldnt help noticing a startling double standard.
Overwhelmingly, store assistants and talk radio hosts bid farewell to Jewish guests with a cheerful Happy Chanukah while others, including those identified as Christians, received the generic Happy holidays. With each passing year, secular fundamentalism more successfully injects into American culture the notion that the word Christmas is deeply offensive. Well, after watching this years repeat of the annual hate Christianity ritual, I think we may be mistaken in allowing this assault to go unchallenged.
Okay, maybe referring to it as a hate Christianity ritual is a little over the top. But it certainly is obsequious regard for faiths like Judaism and even Islam, while treating Christianity with contempt and disrespect. It is not that I want Judaism treated with less respect; it is just that I think that Christianity deserves just as much respect. And I say this as an Orthodox rabbi who has spent a lifetime teaching Torah and devoting myself to the long term interests of Judaism.
I dont think that Americas Jewish community does itself any long term good by denouncing every public expression of Christian faith as if it were a force-fed dose of castor oil. This anti-Christianism is not only unhealthy for all Americans; I think it is particularly destructive for Jews to be leading the extirpation of all signs of Christian fervor from the village square.
Palm Beach, Florida, prohibited a Christian group from placing a depiction of Christ in the manger alongside a menorah on public property. One of the plaintiffs, Maureen Donnell, told Fox News, Theyve discriminated against us, they allow the menorahs but they have absolutely no interest in these Nativity scenes. Donnell and her co-plaintiff want the menorah and the Nativity scene to be displayed next to each other. But Palm Beach officials remained unmoved. Today, Palm Beach is a city with a large Jewish population. It would be wonderful to be able to believe that Palm Beachs Jews fought as valiantly for Christian religious rights as they have had to do in the past for their own.
Many Jewish parents, who remain indifferent when their children bop to rap musics obscene lyrics, recoil in horror at the same kids exposure to Christmas carols. It is invariably a local rabbi who teams up with the ACLU to file a lawsuit against the school singing carols or the town unwary enough to allow a Nativity scene on the library lawn.
A music teacher in a Washington school removed the C word from the lyrics in Dale Woods Carol from an Irish Cabin to read: The harsh wind blows down from the mountains and blows a white winter to me.
Parent Darla Dowell, whose 7-year-old daughter sang the song, called the decision absurd. I think the most important thing that angers me is that they sent a message to my child that theres something wrong with Christmas and saying Christmas and celebrating it and performing it at her school with her peers, Dowell told Fox News. She couldnt understand why its okay to exclude Christmas when her daughter was forced to sing Hanukkah tunes that included lyrics about the mighty miracle of Israels ancient days. In that song, there were at least six mentions of the Jewish holiday.
Although I suppose it is possible, does anyone feel confident that Mrs. Dowell will think better of Jews in 2004 than she did in 2003? How exactly does this aggressively applied double standard help to maintain the mutual respect that used to characterize the relations between American Jews and Christians?
A 1989 Supreme Court decision in Allegheny County v. ACLU found a Nativity scene on the main staircase of the county courthouse to be unconstitutional. The court emphasized that the privately owned crèche, which included a banner proclaiming Gloria in Excelsis Deo (Glory to God in the Highest), was indisputably religious. In the same case, however, a five-judge majority found that a nearby display, featuring an 18-foot Hanukkah menorah did not violate the Establishment Clause. In the interests of truth and friendship, it ought to be the entire Jewish community protesting the courts actions. Instead, in a bizarre inversion of truth, many of us Jews triumph at Christianitys suppression as if we had just replayed the two millennia-old victory of the Macabees against secularism.
Holiday greeting cards also demonstrate this syndrome quite well. Dont take my word for it, step up to the greeting card racks in your local drug store and see what I mean. Virtually every Chanukah card is tasteful, well okay, deferential at least. Similarly, every Kwanza card is a paper paean to this rootless, recent invention. Cards intended for blacks and Jews are respectful. No sir, you wont find too many cards taking vulgar, humorous shots at those holidays.
Now check out the Christmas cards. Oh sorry, I should have said check out the holiday cards or check out the winter season cards. Youll be hard pressed to even find a card that mentions the word Christmas. It is as if word is deemed so offensive that casual card browsers should be protected from accidental contamination. Alongside the decent cards youd expect, you will also find tasteless Christmas cards that mock the holiday. Youll even find off-color risqué Christmas cards that youd be embarrassed to be caught looking at. What secularism seems to be saying is, if we cant completely banish Christmas, lets at least turn it into a bad joke.
New York City schools encourage their students to bring decorations that reflect Judaism and Islam but Christian decorations are prohibited. Yes, that is right. Holiday displays of the Jewish menorah and Islams star and crescent are allowed in some 1,200 public schools in New York City, but the creche, or nativity display, are verboten. (The case is currently being heard in Federal Court in Brooklyn. The suit, which should have been brought in a spirit of brotherhood by a Jewish organization, doesnt seek to prohibit the Jewish and Muslim exhibits, but to end discrimination against Christianity.) Nationwide, Christmas Nativity scenes are banned from city halls and shopping malls but Chanukah menorahs are permitted. (They are only cultural symbols, not religious, you see.) Seattle city employees are prohibited from wishing one another a merry Christmas but permitted to say Happy Holidays or even, Happy Chanukah.
The storm troopers of secularism who so diligently guard the rest of us from inadvertent exposure to the Christmas virus can rest for another year. Their work is done for now, but right after Thanksgiving, theyll be back, youll see. Hey! I have a great idea-this year, lets be ready for em.
Radio talk show host, Rabbi Daniel Lapin, is president of Toward Tradition, a Seattle-based, bridge-building organization providing a voice for all Americans who defend the Judeo-Christian values vital for our nations survival.
posted on 02/20/2004 11:22:06 AM PST
"What changes offend your relatives?"
I'm really out of my element here, but I've heard yearnings for the return of the Latin mass and the traditional music, disdain for the guitar mass, some grumbing about plain clothes nuns ("stealth nuns" they call them), warm memories of Friday night fish fries and general nostalgia for a time when the church had a greater spiritual infuence in the lives of parishiners. Like I say, I'm not Catholic, and don't know exactly which, if any, of these changes are really the result of Vatican II. It's just what I hear from the family.
posted on 02/20/2004 11:24:32 AM PST
(And don't you dare correct my spelling!)
To: HairOfTheDog; All
New York City schools encourage their students to bring decorations that reflect Judaism and Islam but Christian decorations are prohibited. Yes, that is right. Holiday displays of the Jewish menorah and Islams star and crescent are allowed in some 1,200 public schools in New York City, but the creche, or nativity display, are verboten.
posted on 02/20/2004 11:25:06 AM PST
To: Behind Liberal Lines
(FOX attacks "antiquated Catholic ideology")
How does choosing to honor a tradition that was deemed good up until the
early 1960s (about 40 years ago) become "antiquated"?
And as Gibson pointed out in his ABC interview with Diane Sawyer...that tradition
has never been abrogated (e.g., outlawed) even by the Vatican II changes?
(No flames please, I speak as a non-Catholic who has just been following this
situation with interest.)
posted on 02/20/2004 11:27:16 AM PST
Friday, Feb. 20, 2004
Gibson's Family: Father Tricked Into Interview
When Mel Gibson's 85-year-old father, Hutton, told a New York radio interviewer Wednesday that the Holocaust had been exaggerated and that Jews were trying to rule the world, he had no idea he was speaking on the record, let alone being recorded for broadcast, Gibson family sources tell NewsMax.
When WSNR's Steve Feuerstein called Gibson's father in Texas, the family believes he misrepresented himself as a fan of Gibson's, saying he wanted to "congratulate Mel's father" on his son's work. Hutton Gibson says the caller claimed his mother maintained a Web site devoted to "The Passion of the Christ."
Feuerstein allegedly said nothing to Mr. Gibson about a radio interview.
With no idea that his comments were being taped, Gibson's father made no attempt to disguise his views. He told Feuerstein that the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust had been fabricated.
"It's all - maybe not all fiction - but most of it is," he told the radio interviewer.
According to the account obtained by NewsMax, the elderly Gibson talked to Feuerstein for almost an hour before asking for further identification. The talk host promised to call back with more details, but never did.
Feuerstein did not return calls for comment.
So far, Hutton Gibson has not publicly apologized for the explosive remarks. But in previous interviews, first with the Wall Street Journal's Peggy Noonan, Mel Gibson noted he didn't share his father's revisionist views on the Holocaust. The actor-director said he had friends who had survived the death camps.
"Do I believe that there were concentration camps where defenseless and innocent Jews died cruelly under the Nazi regime? Of course I do, absolutely," Gibson told ABC's Diane sawyer. "It was an atrocity of monumental proportion."
Asked about an earlier interview where Gibson senior offered similarly offensive views, the Hollywood star complained: "Their whole agenda here, my detractors, is to drive a wedge between me and my father. And it's not going to happen. I love him. He's my father."
Gibson's father's comments were the topic Thursday night of Alan Colmes' national radio show.
James Hirsen, a NewsMax columnist, was interviewed and said that Hutton Gibson's "statement is indefensible, but it is also irrelevant. Mel's dad didn't make the movie; Mel Gibson did."
Rabbi James Rudin of American Jewish Committee, who also was on the show, agreed with Hirsen's point.
posted on 02/20/2004 11:32:32 AM PST
Autodidact is a good word here. I like that way of putting it. I have no reason to doubt his intelligence, nor, for that reason, any reason to believe that he's particularly intelligent, but, as you say, stupid people don't win at Jeopardy.
Just took a break from looking at the financial records of an 83 year old client. He is way behind on his spousal support, his ex is almost as old as he is. Very well educated, used to be a hot shot once upon a time. He doesn't want to realize how impaired he is, and his children don't want to realize it, either.
Mel deserves the support of all Christians. He had put his career on the line. Christian people should also target his detractors and boycott them. At the end, they will learn that freedom is for every American, and not for a chosen few.
Not sure what we're arguing about. You prefer the mass in Latin, I like it just fine in English. You like altar rails, I don't miss them. I like being able to watch the priest's face rather than his back, but the other way was OK, too.
I just don't think the things you are talking about are important enough to get worked up over, much less walk away from your religion.
I object to Holocaust denial and anti-Semitism, also. I have heard Mel Gibson specifically denounce anti-Semitism, as recently as this week on Diane Sawyer's show.
I don't care about other aspects of this story. Gibson is not in union with Rome, nor is his chapel.
I just don't get the point of so many people being upset over whether Mel Gibson's chapel is acceptable to Rome... Assuming you are correct and Mel Gibson's chapel isn't accepted by Rome, then what? I mean, it's not as if the media is out there every day beating the drum in support of the Catholic church. Is the point supposed to be not to go see the film because Mel Gibson is a lapsed Catholic? That approach by the media would be supremely ironic, given their extensively reported concern about anti-semitism. If the point of that media barrage is not to be judgmental about other faiths, then attacks on Mel Gibson's "fringe" Catholicism seem to be misplaced. I guess I just don't understand why the Vatican's position on Mel Gibson's faith is so important to a lot of people.
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