What Is The Reformed Faith?

PCANews.com ^ | 1993 | Michael Horton

[CCWoody]

As providence would have it, I am currently in the Book of Romans with the online Bible study that I am hosting. And, as the powers of random luck would have it I had sent out a little commentary last night on Romans 3:28. And, as Woody would have it, I will be archiving your post into the Sword starter kit on our Fortress of Solitude. And, tonight, when I get home, I might just pull a neat little ditty on the difference between Catholic & Reformed faith from the kit and adapt it to a folloup mail. After all, last night I titled my mail "Sola Fide - a Battle cry of Reformation."

That is, if the stars manage to hold their current alignment. But, you might want to say a quick prayer for me cause about a week ago I added my pastoral staff to the distribution because I am currently lobbying for a church sponsored Bible study which I hope to lead and I wanted them to see what kinds of goodies I'll be bringing in my bag for the Arminian kiddies and I hope I'm not causing too much heartburn with all this Reformed talk, Spurgeon, Piper, Henry, Gill, Westminster Confession & Geneva notes stuff.... (I'm just working 'em up to Edward's tasty treats)

Woody.

[Tantumergo]

"So we see that, to the Calvinist, Faith by definition incorporates three crucial facets:

Notitia or Mind -- Knowledge of Jesus Christ’s Lordship
Assensus or Heart -- Acknowledgment of Jesus Christ’s Lordship
Volitio or Will -- Reverent Submission to Jesus Christ’s Lordship"

Doesn't sound very Calvinist to me - Assensus and Volitio are good works by any other name. I think you guys are all just closet Arminians after all!!!

;)

[drstevej]

Calvinist ordo saludis...

Regeneration
Faith
Justification

***Assensus and Volitio are good works by any other name.***

Calvinism sees saving faith (in all three aspects) as a gift from God rather than a gift to God.

You are confusing Calvinism with Zombie-ology that places the ordo saludis...

Faith
Regeneration
Justification

and posits prevenient grace rendering man "un-dead" in order for him to decide he wants to be fully alive.

[SoothingDave]

For as the Apostle Paul declares, we are Justified by Saving Faith itself apart from Good Works.

Galatians 2:16 -- Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

I find it hard to believe that you don't know what is meant by "the works of the law" and that you confuse them with the good works flowing from a Christian working in cooperation with the grace of God.

This passage is not discussing "faith v works" as we Christians do, but is contrasting the Old and New Covenants.

If you misread this one verse, what are we to make of the rest of your writings?

SD

[Tantumergo]

"This passage is not discussing "faith v works" as we Christians do, but is contrasting the Old and New Covenants.

If you misread this one verse, what are we to make of the rest of your writings?"

Ah, but Dave - you are forgetting to read the scriptures through the prism of the Institutes of the Christian Religion written by one J. Calvin.

Don't you know that his writings trump all Apostles, Popes, Patriarchs, Councils, synods, saints, martyrs, liturgy and Tradition throughout the whole of Christian history?

Scripture is so simple if you remember that one small principle - sola Calvina.

[CCWoody]

Ah, a post seething in sarcasm. The last desperate defense of one who has no real rebuttal.

Though, I will give you this: Calvin's writings are far superiour to the writings of almost all the Popes. And I don't care what throne upon which they were seated when pronouncing them.

Woody.

[RnMomof7]

Worthy of plagiarism ( I have copied it :>)

[RnMomof7]

Scripture is so simple if you remember that one small principle - sola Calvina.

As opposed to...sola Rome via sola Pappa + keeping the Church LAWS ( NOT BY THE WORD OF THE LAW)

[drstevej]

Tanto, how about a reasoned response to OP's presentation?

Others may take pot shots, but you usually deal with substance. This reply is both untrue and non responsive.

Please try again.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

For as the Apostle Paul declares, we are Justified by Saving Faith itself apart from Good Works. Galatians 2:16 -- Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. ~~ I find it hard to believe that you don't know what is meant by "the works of the law" and that you confuse them with the good works flowing from a Christian working in cooperation with the grace of God. This passage is not discussing "faith v works" as we Christians do, but is contrasting the Old and New Covenants. If you misread this one verse, what are we to make of the rest of your writings? SD

This passage is not discussing "faith v works" as we Christians do, but is contrasting the Old and New Covenants... Hmmm.

• Are you saying that Actions in accordance with God's Law, in the Old Testament, were not Good Works?
• Or are you saying that Actions in accordance with God's Law, in the New Testament, are not Good Works?

  Please advise.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

For me, a Catholic, I feel compelled to point out that my church, that is, the CHURCH of THE APOSTLES (the authors of TRADITION with the Holy Spirit's guidance -- you know keys, Peter), The Bride of Our Lord Jesus Christ, is where literally billions¹ have placed their trust as to having the right answers to the questions which we ask in order to lead us to Him.

The Church of the Apostles is found, or NOT found, amongst Presbyters who adhere to the teachings of the Apostles, or who do NOT -- regardless of who appointed them to their positions.

[SoothingDave]

Are you saying that Actions in accordance with God's Law, in the Old Testament, were not Good Works?
Or are you saying that Actions in accordance with God's Law, in the New Testament, are not Good Works?
Please advise.

I am saying that Christians who perform actions that are meritorious (feeding the hungry, comforting the afflicted, etc.) are doing something entirely different than Jews following the Law given at Sinai.

When Christians discuss faith v works, it is not about following the Law at all.

We all agree that the Law did not provide righteousness. That is what Paul is saying in the passage you misunderstand. It has nothing to do with the need for Christians to do good things in order to make their faith real and not merely an empty confession.

SD

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

I am saying that Christians who perform actions that are meritorious (feeding the hungry, comforting the afflicted, etc.) are doing something entirely different than Jews following the Law given at Sinai. When Christians discuss faith v works, it is not about following the Law at all. We all agree that the Law did not provide righteousness. That is what Paul is saying in the passage you misunderstand. It has nothing to do with the need for Christians to do good things in order to make their faith real and not merely an empty confession. SD

"When Christians discuss faith v works, it is not about following the Law at all." etc.

Really? So -- are you saying that when a Christian acts in accordance with the Law of God, that is not a Good Work? Or, are you saying that when a believing Old Testament Jew acted in accordance with the Law of God, that was not a Good Work?

Let's use some specific Laws for example, from the 613 laws of the Old Testament:

• LAW 195: Give charity to the poor (Lev. 25:35, 36; Deut. 15:8).
• LAW 200: Pay the worker his wages on time (Deut. 24:15).
• LAW 203: Help must be given to load man or beast when necessary (Deut. 22:4).
• LAW 206: It is required to love one’s neighbor as oneself (Lev. 19:18).
• LAW 248: The persecuted are to be rescued even if it means killing the oppressor (Num. 27:8).

Which of the above Actions would NOT be a Good Work, for a Christian? Or...
Which of the above Actions would NOT be a good work for a believing Old Testament Jew?

You say "When Christians discuss faith v works, it is not about following the Law at all" in order to escape the trap into which the Council of Trent has snared you, as regards Galatians 2:16. But I don't think you can sustain your argument -- I don't think it holds water.

Nonetheless, I'm giving you a chance to maintain your argument that "When Christians discuss faith v works, it is not about following the Law at all": I've listed 5 Laws of God above, from the Old Testament, as Test Case examples. You tell Me which of these Laws, it is not a Good Work for a Christian to practice.

Hmmm?

[SoothingDave]

You seem not to be listening.

Arguing about specific actions is beside the point. The point is that the Law did not bring righteousness. That is what Paul says.

You misread this entirely to try to turn it into an anti-Roman polemic.

Is it a "good work" to refrain from pork products? Is it a "good work" to shun your wife during here menses? Is it a "good work" to sacrifice a turtledove upon your firstborn?

Christians follow the Spirit in doing good for their neighbors. Not the Law. It shouldn't take a Catholic to explain to you the difference between the Old and New Covenants. Really.

Christians following the Spirit and doing "good things" are to be rewarded and such good things are necessary for our faith to be real and for our salvation. It has nothing to do with Galatians and the verse you wrench out of context.

I'm beginning to believe you aren't pulling my leg.

SD

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

You seem not to be listening. Arguing about specific actions is beside the point. The point is that the Law did not bring righteousness. That is what Paul says. You misread this entirely to try to turn it into an anti-Roman polemic.

The Old Testament Jews had Faith and Good Works.

Paul says that they were Justified by their Faith, and not by their Good Works.

'Nuff Said.

Is it a "good work" to refrain from pork products? Is it a "good work" to shun your wife during here menses? Is it a "good work" to sacrifice a turtledove upon your firstborn?

These were all Good Works to those whom they were given, for it is always a Good Work for a believer to practice the Law of God.

However, you'd have a hard time making the case that these Laws were ever given to Gentiles, or are still (after the Incarnation) binding on Jews.

However, when did "Love thy Neighbor" become irrelevant? It is a Good Work for Christians to practice this Law of God, is it not?

Christians follow the Spirit in doing good for their neighbors. Not the Law. It shouldn't take a Catholic to explain to you the difference between the Old and New Covenants. Really. Christians following the Spirit and doing "good things" are to be rewarded and such good things are necessary for our faith to be real and for our salvation. It has nothing to do with Galatians and the verse you wrench out of context. I'm beginning to believe you aren't pulling my leg. SD

When Christians do Good Works in the Spirit, they are practicing the Law of God: "Love thy Neighbor".
And when faithful Old Testament Jews practiced the Law of God in believing obedience to God, they were Following the Spirit.

Therefore, the Galatians passage is not wrenched out of context, for it has always been -- Old Testament and New -- a Good Work for the Faithful to practice the Law of God.

And, both Old Testament and New, it is their Faith which justifies, and NOT their Good Works. (Galatians 2:16)

[1stFreedom]

OP,

Challenging posts. I'm ill with the flu, trying to move into a new apartment, and trying to work all at the same time. Needless to say, I don't have the mental energy to formulate a reasonably intelligent response.

However, I suspect that by Friday I'll be doing much better and will have a good response for you.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

OP, Challenging posts. I'm ill with the flu, trying to move into a new apartment, and trying to work all at the same time. Needless to say, I don't have the mental energy to formulate a reasonably intelligent response. However, I suspect that by Friday I'll be doing much better and will have a good response for you.

That's cool, take all the time you need. I myself will be travelling on business much of the day Friday; so I may have to take a day or so to answer your Friday response, in turn.

[SoothingDave]

Galatians 2:16 -- Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

The Old Testament Jews had Faith and Good Works.

Paul says that they were Justified by their Faith, and not by their Good Works.

So you maintain that the phrase in this verse "works of the law" does not refer only to following the Old Covenant laws given at Sinai?

You consider when you "do good" to be "works of the law"?

SD

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

So you maintain that the phrase in this verse "works of the law" does not refer only to following the Old Covenant laws given at Sinai? You consider when you "do good" to be "works of the law"? SD

Can a Work be Good, if it is not in accordance with the Law of God?

Whenever a Christian does a Good Work for his neighbor, he is practicing the Law of God: "LAW 206: It is required to love one’s neighbor as oneself (Lev. 19:18)."

And whenever a Christian practices the Laws of God -- to Give charity to the poor (Lev. 25:35, 36; Deut. 15:8), Pay the worker his wages on time (Deut. 24:15), Gives Help to load man or beast when necessary (Deut. 22:4), Rescues the Presecuted (Num. 27:8) -- he does Good Works.

Thus, we see again: the Old Testament Jews had both Faith and Good Works -- Works in accord with God's Law and by His Spirit; and...

Christians have both Faith and Good Works -- Works in accord with God's Law and by His Spirit; and...

Paul says that Justification is by the Faith, and not by the Good Works. (Galatians 2:16)

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Well, guys... I gotta go. Gotta jet.
See y'all later...