"What on earth do those people think they're doing?" [Episcopal Church meltdown]

First Things ^ | February 2004 | Richard John Neuhaus

[Eala]

"Inclusion becomes the fundamental value for the Church because it allows the Church to have a real purpose of validating that people have indeed found their true identity, and thus found God."

[Eala]

ping

[xzins]

Thought you might like the gnostic references (analysis) in this article.

X

[PetroniusMaximus]

***“The church leaders who are risking everything for Gene Robinson are in their own way and according to an heretical but powerful vision trying desperately to find a spiritual vocation for the Church that has some liveliness and connects deeply with the deepest yearning of the American soul***


I think the author gives ENTIRELY too much credit to these folks.

There is something in these people that wants to destroy and deface goodness, decency and the old morality. I think on some level they hate the God of the Bible and have made it their secret task to erase Him from the Church.

On the surface they may seem to be self-convinced crusaders for enlightenment and the progressive, but underneath something much darker lurks.

[P-Marlowe]

This article makes little if any sense. The Author speaks of "The American Religion" as if everything Harold Bloom said in his book was as gospel as the bible itself.

Certainly Vicki Gene's ascension to bishop in the Episcopalian church is evidence of apostacy, however apostacy is clearly not limited to America nor is it unique to American Religions.

The problem with the Epicopalian Church is the same problem that was present in Laodecia and the doctrines of the American Episcopalian Church, which allowed this spiritual abortion to take place, is the same doctrine condemned in Revelation when our Lord said that he HATED the deeds of the Nicolaitans. Although we are never told exactly what the deeds of the Nicolaitans were, it is clear that God intended that we would "know it when we see it." And here it is.

This problem has plagued the Church since the first convert fell to his knees and cried "Lord have mercy upon me, a sinner." It is not unique to American Religion. It is endemic throughout the whole earth. It is part of a global conspiracy against the true gospel headed by none other than Satan himself.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

The cure is not to finger point at the "American Religion" as if the fault lies with the Southern Baptists or the Quakers, or even the Episcopalians. The cure is found in the next verses.

Eph 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

If we believe our Calvinist brothers then it is God's will that Vicki Gene is a Bishop over the Episcopal Church. I believe it is God's will as well. God has allowed the Episcopal Church to fall into open apostacy and to embrace both the sinner and the sin. Just because God allows it does not mean God approves. Got hates it as we hate it. But, it is a wake up call to all churches and all saints to be diligent and to oppose the deeds of the Nicolaitans and to HATE those deeds as Christ hates them and to do all that we can do to oppose them and to cleanse our churches from their influence.

There's a war going on folks. It is good against evil. We must do our part by putting on the whole armor and entering into the battle.

[ahadams2]

ping.

[xzins]

Do I remember that one "nicolai" might have been an early member who introduced some "gnostic" influences....the only thing that matters is the "spirit" and not what you do with your flesh?

I've also heard it described as a "hierarchy," but I have trouble with that because there is an apparent hierarchy in the book of Acts and the Letters of Paul.

[HarleyD]

I think PM is right. Far too much credit is given to these people – and it’s not a problem with churches just in America. From a Gnostic website:

”To the gnostic it is ignorance and indifference and not sin that is now, and that has always been, the cause of all of the human race's problems here in the garden of eden.”

http://www.gnosticphilosophy.cwc.net/

By virtue of their definition how can these people be Christians if they don’t even believe in sin? And they’re in every church. The author neglects to mention those who are opposing these people.

[PetroniusMaximus]

Slightly off topic, but still interesting...

"Flee also the Nicolaitanes, falsely so-called, who are lovers of pleasure and given to calumnious speeches" -Ignatius

"The Nicolaitanes are the followers of that Nicolas who was one of the seven first ordained to the diaconate by the apostles. They lead lives of unrestrained indulgence. The character of these men is very plainly pointed out in the Apocalypse of John [when they are presented], as teaching that it is a matter of indifference to practice adultery, and to eat things sacrificed to idols. Wherefore the Word has also spoken of them thus: "But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate." - Irenaeus in Against Heresies

[xzins]

Seems to be right on topic. Thanks.

[r9etb]

This article makes little if any sense. The Author speaks of "The American Religion" as if everything Harold Bloom said in his book was as gospel as the bible itself.

You've misunderstood. The article makes all kinds of sense, as an explanation of "what are these guys thinking." It's long been obvious that various aspects of "sexual expression" are becoming the defining characteristics of our cultural expression -- it's literally everywhere.

In reference to Robinson himself, sexuality and religion is quite literally the same thing:

For example:

Most of the questioning concerned his sexuality. When he was asked how he reconciles his relationship with his partner, Mark Andrew, with biblical prohibitions on homosexuality, Robinson told the committee that in Andrew's "unfailing and unquestioning love for me, I experience a little bit of the kind of never-ending love that God has for me. So it's sacramental for me."

This is exactly the sort of thing Neuhaus is talking about in his article.

There's a war going on folks. It is good against evil. We must do our part by putting on the whole armor and entering into the battle.

Yes -- but it's always most helpful if one can know the enemy before going into battle with them.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

If we believe our Calvinist brothers then it is God's will that Vicki Gene is a Bishop over the Episcopal Church. I believe it is God's will as well...just because God allows it does not mean God approves...

Looks like you have been paying attention, P-M.

If God "allows" this apostasy of which He could not approve, does not everything exist by His "allowance?"

Or is the world fractured between God's will and happenstance?

[P-Marlowe]

If God "allows" this apostasy of which He could not approve, does not everything exist by His "allowance?"

Of Course! You certainly don't have to be a Calvinist to believe that. Indeed, I thought you Calvinists believe that God not only "allows" everything to happen, but "approves" of everything that happens. My understanding of "GRPL" Calvinism is that God not only allows this to happen, but God commands and compels it to happen because it pleases him.

Are you saying that God will allow that which he does not approve; that which he hates; that which literally makes him angry? If so, then it sounds as if you are the one who is learning from me. :-)

Welcome to my theology.

[Siobhan]

A very informative article -- and it also applies to Frank Griswold's likeminded friends among American Catholics, Presbyterians, Methodists, and Lutherans. (By the way, I am not surprised that the primitive Protestants on this forum don't get it.)

The Gnostic goal of claiming imitation keys of the Kingdom are articulated so clearly in this article, but we also see the expression of this yearning at the heart of the American Religion in the popularity of the odious novel The Da Vinci Code.

Amy Wellborn, well-known blogster that she is, soon will release a fine book debunking The Da VInci Code. It may even be available this week. I'm a bit out of touch with it, because I am here with my daughter, fellow FReeper Maeve, who has had a beautiful little boy.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

God commands and compels it to happen because it please Him.

God's own will pleases Him, Marlowe. For the glory of His own purpose, not ours.

Your legalistic mind continues to try to draw distinctions where there aren't any. God's will allows, compels, commands, permits, instigates, initiates, ordains, foreknows, predesignates and predestinates ALL.

You've taken the frist step to recognizing this by saying something actually occurs because God wills it for His own purpose.

The question becomes then, where do you draw the line between what God wills and happenstance?

I don't see any line.

[Eala]

Maeve and Siobhan, congratulations! (And do I see a pattern here? *\;-)

le meas,
Eala

[HarleyD]

I think God's purpose can be clearly seen by Mordecai advise to Esther;

"Do not imagine that you in the king's palace can escape any more than all the Jews. For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance will arise for the Jews from another place and you and your father's house will perish. And who knows whether you have not attained royalty for such a time as this?" Est 4:13-14

God's purpose will be done. For Christians we can obey His calling and receive a blessing (like Esther) or not (which He may still use us like Jonah). For non-Christians God will work His pleasure to bring about His Will.

[P-Marlowe]

For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance will arise for the Jews from another place and you and your father's house will perish. And who knows whether you have not attained royalty for such a time as this?" Est 4:13-14

"For if"

Ah, the contingency. If Esther had remained silent, God would have found another way to do it. Whether Esther was used of God was dependent upon whether Esther was willing to be used by God. Hmmmm. Free will and God's purpose. God will work with us or around us. Although this verse speaks of God fulfilling his purpose in all things, this verse clearly speaks against determinism as the method.

[xzins]

Ya just gotta love her, P-M. She's so kind about her sarcasm. :>)

Sorta reminds me of my wife.

[ahadams2]

*ahem* 'proto-gnostic' I believe *ahem* :-)