The "Bible Alone" is Not Enough

Catholic Family News ^ | July 1995

[kosta50]

The orgranization which you claim was created by the so-called Fathers of the church...

Let's see, the prominent Christian theologians of the 1st four centuries like

Origen, Irenaeus, Clement of Aexandria, John Chrysostom, Saint Ephraem, Augustine of Hippo, Tertullian, and Saint Jerome

are "so-called Fathers of the church." Impressive!

These "so-called" Fathers of the Church, as you called them, are the people who rejected heresies and uninspired writings and to whom you and I owe the Bible that you are quoting from. They gave us the Bible, the Church and the manner in which to worship.

"... has become quite a different thing altogether.

Maybe you would care to elaborate as to just how did the Orthodox Church change from the only Church that has been in existence since the Pentecost? Maybe you can show how, when and why it has changed?

[pseudogratix]

I give up. In fact, I will take it one step further. Let's just stick to John 3:16 and throw out the rest of the Bible. Everything we really need is in John 3:16 --- all the rest are mere superfluous details.

pseudogratix @ In Him All Things Hold Together

[Goreknowshowtocheat]

Since John was the last Apostle and held the keys of the Kingdom, it is certainly fruitless to claim that Peter could ordain someone higher than John. If the church was to continue with divine authority it would have been John who would have continued it. There was little divine about the Catholic Church in the dark ages.

[Aquinasfan]

Do you think that God commissioned the New Testament ?

Yes, but which canon of the Old and New Testaments did He commission?

[Aquinasfan]

Scripture doesn't speak of Consubstantiation or Transubstantiation.

1 Corinthians 11

23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread,
24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me."
25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me."
26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
27Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.
28A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup.
29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.
30That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep [died].

What in regard to these do you consider essential.

John 6:53

Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

[Titanites]

There was little divine about the Catholic Church in the dark ages.

I recommend you make an effort to escape your own "dark ages" and read a genuine history book instead of listening to the distortions you've been taught. Excerpted from the World Book Encyclopedia:

The Dark Ages was once used to describe the early Middle Ages, from the A.D. 400's to the 900's, and referred to a supposed lack of learning during this period. But in reality, the early Middle Ages were not completely "dark."

The advent of the Middle Ages occurred when the Germanic barbarians took over the Roman empire and destroyed their system of civilization and laws. Education and culture were all but eliminated. The system of city and state schools were destroyed.

The Church was the primary civilizing force of the early Middle Ages. It provided leadership for the people and saved western Europe from complete ignorance.

Gradually, the Church converted the barbarians to Christianity. Although the Europeans didn't honor a single ruler any longer, they did gradually begin to worship the same God. Church missionaries traveled great distances to spread the Christian faith, and they helped civilize the barbarians by introducing Roman ideas of government and justice into their lives.

The popes, bishops, and other leaders of the church took over many functions of government after the Roman emperors lost power. The church collected taxes and maintained law courts to punish criminals. Church buildings also served as hospitals for the sick, and as inns for travelers.

Two church instituitions – the cathedral and the monastery - became centers of learning in the early Middle Ages. The monks, who gave up worldly life to serve God through prayer and work, set up most of the schools in Europe.

I doesn't look to me like God abandoned the Church during this period.

[Aquinasfan]

More like ... Catholics and their soon-to-be schismed Orthodox brethren began recreating Christianity in their own image long before that.

What the Protestants did in the 1600's was to go back to the original teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.

So the gates of hell prevailed against Christ's Church for 1600 years?

[Titanites]

It bears worth repeating:

29For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.

It can't be stated any plainer than that!

[PetroniusMaximus]

***Did Our Lord write any part of the New Testament or command His Apostles to do so?***


(Posted Earlier)

This article is woefully ignorant of the scriptures...


"And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13and among the lampstands was someone "like a son of man,"[2] dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.


When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

"Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later."


...Write, therefore...

[Goreknowshowtocheat]

My point was authority. While pieces of the primitive church survived, the doctrine was thoroughly Hellenized. The Catholic Church was rather heroic in surviving the dark ages even with the corruption in the leadership. (Wealthy families picking Popes etc.) I do not argue with the good that any group does and certainly the Catholics have done immense good despite the failings of some of their priests.

[PetroniusMaximus]

***Jesus was not referring to the Gospels (there were none at the time); ***


Yes, I fully agree with that. Jesus wasn't refering to the Gospels as they were not yet written. (Or MAY not have yet been written - Matthew was a tax collector and able to write down what Jesus said. I believe Papias reported something like "Matthew wrote down all Jesus said and the others translated..."

What I am trying to show is that both Jesus and Paul looked to the body of scripture of their day as the final authority in any matter and looked with scepticism and sometimes hostility upon the sacred oral tradition (Talmud).

The point I draw from that is that we, in our day, should opperate by the same guiding principle that Paul and Jesus used: scripture, not tradition is the final authority.

***Judging from what you are saying, it is suggested that perhaps Jesus thought the Talmud to be corrupt. I was not aware that Jesus rejected the Talmud because it was a "tradition of men."***

Jesus did, in fact, consider the Talmud to be corrupted. When he is speaking of "tradition" he is referencing the Talmud and nothing else for the Talmud was the sacred oral tradition of the Jews.

This sacred oral tradition had become corrupt in the judgement of Jesus and he used the written Torah to judge it's level of corruption.

[PetroniusMaximus]

***Let's just stick to John 3:16 and throw out the rest of the Bible.***

"He who despises the word will be destroyed,
But he who fears the commandment will be rewarded."
Proverbs 13

[Quester]

Scripture doesn't speak of Consubstantiation or Transubstantiation.

1 Corinthians 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread,

24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me."

25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me."

26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.

27 Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.

28 A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup.

29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.

30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep [died].

There is no speaking of any transformation here.

[Titanites]

My point was authority.

You need to demonstrate that John held the keys of the Kingdom. Show us where he was given the keys or we'll just have to take your claim for what it is - a figment of your imagination.

If your point was authority, what was your point in making the false claim that "There was little divine about the Catholic Church in the dark ages"?

While pieces of the primitive church survived, the doctrine was thoroughly Hellenized.

You're going to have to back up this claim, too. Where do you get this stuff?

I do not argue with the good that any group does and certainly the Catholics have done immense good despite the failings of some of their priests

Show me a church without sinners.

[Aquinasfan]

There is no speaking of any transformation here.

Uh, the bread and wine become Jesus' Body and Blood.

[Quester]

What the Protestants did in the 1600's was to go back to the original teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.

So the gates of hell prevailed against Christ's Church for 1600 years?

Obviously, the church has gone on in the accomplishment of God's purpose on the earth.

This doesn't mean that the church has not had periods of challenge, both external and internal.

This is something which cannot possibly be denied taking into account some of the internal challenges which the church faces today.

[Quester]

Uh, the bread and wine become Jesus' Body and Blood.

Jesus speaks of no 'becoming'.

He says that the bread and the wine 'are' His body and blood.

[Aquinasfan]

Jesus speaks of no 'becoming'. He says that the bread and the wine 'are' His body and blood.

OK. At one time the bread and wine were simply bread and wine, perhaps when they were made. At a later time they become Jesus' Body and Blood. Their essence (substance/quiddity/"whatness"/ nature) has changed. "Transubstantiation" simply means a change in substance.

[pseudogratix]

"He who despises the word will be destroyed, But he who fears the commandment will be rewarded."

Sorry, but that isn't in the Bible. All that is found the Bible is: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

BTW, in using that extrabiblical verse, you seem to be implying that "word" equals "The Bible." Are you sure you aren't reading more than is really there? Either way, the only "word" in the Bible is "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

pseudogratix @ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[PetroniusMaximus]

***"The Bible." Are you sure you aren't reading more than is really there***

Are you familiar with Hebrew parallelism?

Hebrew parallelism:
"A common literary feature of Hebrew poetry in the Old Testament is called parallelism, in which the words of two or more lines of text are directly related in some way. This feature can be found in any poetic passage, and sometimes even in narrative, although it is more common in the Psalms and Proverbs."

So...

the word = the commandment (Synonomous Parallelism)


***Sorry, but that isn't in the Bible. All that is found the Bible is: "For God...***

My friend, you won't get anywhere by being a scoffer.