Fletch Wideman, president of the local chapter of P-FLAG, or Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays, said the priests "have had nothing but bad flak on this since Olmsted came."
"Bad Flak!"
Posted on 04/28/2004 8:18:31 AM PDT by Phx_RC
Bishop Thomas J. Olmsted privately has ordered nine Catholic priests to withdraw their support from an interfaith statement supporting gay rights.
Two of the nine priests who signed the Phoenix Declaration in January 2003 confirmed they received "personal and confidential" letters from the bishop last week. In the letter, Olmsted tells the priests and one religious brother to remove their names "under obedience" to him. No consequences are spelled out for those who decline.
A copy of the letter was not available, and, as of Tuesday, none of the priests had asked that their names be removed.
Olmsted said the declaration came to his attention "a few weeks ago," leading him to invite the priests "to talk with me personally about this serious pastoral matter." The bishop, who gave no reason for his action, said he is writing a series of articles on homosexuality for the diocesan newspaper.
Olmsted's predecessors, Bishop Thomas J. O'Brien and Archbishop Michael J. Sheehan, both knew of the declaration but declined to take action against the priests who signed it. O'Brien led a bishops committee in 1997 that drafted "Always Our Children," which before it was watered down by the Vatican was seen as the church's most progressive stance toward homosexuals.
The Phoenix Declaration calls for "full acceptance" of gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transgendered individuals in churches and in civic life. It calls for an end to "religious and civil discrimination" against those individuals.
The Rev. Vernon Meyer, one of the priests who signed the declaration, said the group signed after making sure it did not conflict with Catholic positions. He said the bishop apparently is concerned that the declaration does not make clear the Catholic teaching on the matter, which encourages support for homosexuals but describes homosexual behavior as "intrinsically disordered" and "contrary to natural law."
Meyer, who has not yet decided how he will respond, said Olmsted's letter missed the point.
"Are we going to jump on the priests signing this letter or is the real issue the violence against people because of their sexual orientation?" he said.
Meyer argued that the wording of the declaration, issued by 120 clergy members calling themselves No Longer Silent, Clergy for Justice, representing 20 religious groups and denominations, was ambiguous enough that it did not conflict with Catholic teaching.
"This was a statement of support and respect for the dignity of people who are homosexual," said Meyer, who is an associate at St. Patrick's Catholic Church in Scottsdale. "It was not intended to state church doctrine or teaching."
. . . [snip]
Joe Haley, 60, who attends St. Helen's Catholic Church in Glendale, said he supports the bishop.
Haley, who is president of the Phoenix chapter of Catholics United for the Faith, said the priests should never have signed such a document.
"Priests should be a little more knowledgeable about the dangers," he said. "They could be easily manipulated. This is a hot-button issue, and church teaching is clear."
But Tom Donovan, 66, of Phoenix, who attends services at the Franciscan Renewal Center, said the bishop's action "creates an issue of conscience for those few priests who signed on, some of the finest clergy I know."
Meyer said the letter is troubling because its reflects a renewed "push for orthodoxy on social and sexual issues."
Donovan added that concerns were raised among church liberals by the bishop's activism on the abortion issue, his reinstatement of the Latin Mass and other issues.
Peggy Roberts, president of No Longer Silent, said the Catholic priests "knew they were sticking their necks out" by signing the declaration.
"I would support them in whatever decision they make, whether to remove their names or not," said Roberts, pastor of Palo Cristi Presbyterian Church in Paradise Valley. "I believe that the message of the Phoenix Declaration is written upon the hearts of those priests and is nothing that the bishop or pope can erase."
Fletch Wideman, president of the local chapter of P-FLAG, or Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays, said the priests "have had nothing but bad flak on this since Olmsted came."
He said only one Protestant denomination, the United Church of Christ, has taken a strong pro-gay stand. The others have taken positions similar to that of the Catholic Church.
Wideman said such positions cause the gay community to respond "to hell with the church, you're really not there for us."
Reach the reporter at mike.clancy@arizonarepublic.com or (602) 444-8550.
(Excerpt) Read more at azcentral.com ...
Note: Bolds and underlines added for emphasis.
Man... the gay community is so hard to keep gay!
More "outreach" is needed.
;-D
Eastsider,our ex-bishop (Always Our Children,O'Brien) was preparing to go to Rome for his ad limina visit,can you believe his chutzpah? Anyway,because he is on probation the judge denied his request to leave the country.
I suppose we all could have worked a little bit harder and come up with the 2 percentage points to have beaten Specter. But I also know that the Catholic Church bears a good deal of the responsibility for not teaching more forcefully and faithfully these last few decades. Poorly catechized Catholics felt no sin in pulling that lever for pro-abortion, pro cloning, pro sodomy Arlen Specter.
Fletch Wideman, president of the local chapter of P-FLAG, or Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays, said the priests "have had nothing but bad flak on this since Olmsted came."
"Bad Flak!"
Bishop Olstead ping!
Catholic Ping - let me know if you want on/off this list
Signers of Declaration
Nine Catholic priests signed the Phoenix Declaration, prepared by a Phoenix organization called No Longer Silent, Clergy for Justice.
They are:
--The Rev. Andre Boulanger, retired.
--The Rev. Scott Brubaker, pastor, St. Bridget, Mesa.
--The Rev. Chris Carpenter, pastor, Christ the King, Mesa.
--The Rev. John Cunningham, pastor, St. Mary Magdalene, Gilbert.
--The Rev. Hugo Gonzalez, pastor, St. Charles Borromeo, Peoria.
--The Rev. Matthew Mampara, associate, St. Mary Magdalene.
--The Rev. Vernon Meyer, Sunday associate, St. Patrick, Scottsdale.
--The Rev. Ray Ritari, pastor, St. Matthew, Phoenix.
--The Rev. Ken Van de Ven, pastor, St. James, Glendale.
--Also signing: Brother Doug Zlatis of St. Matthew.
---------------
Note: Bolds and underlines added for emphasis.
On this list in addition to the above names is Rev. Nils F. Thompson, OFM, Phoenix
Also listed is Rev. Scott Ritchey, Scottsdale United Methodist Church, Scottsdale [Pastor].
Rev. Scott Ritchey is listed as Associate Pastor on the front of the 11/29/98 bulletin of Our Lady of the Valley "Catholic Community".
The Year 2000 Phoenix Diocesan Directory has Ritchey listed as: "On Leave".
The above named Rev. Scott Brubaker is shown on the same bulletin as Pastor.
How much effort did Brubaker make to strengthen the Catholic faith of his Associate Pastor?
Brubaker is listed in the same Diocesan Directory as: Vicar of the Office of Worship.
Lots of Luck!
An earlier list of No Longer Silent / Clergy of Justice Members
includes the name of a priest not in the "latest" list.
It is not known that either list is a complete list.
In part the CCC-APD states that "Courage is needed to refute those who would call evil good and good evil. The example and teaching of the Lord Jesus and His apostles show clearly that false teachers are to be exposed and refuted so that the Church is protected (Acts 20:28-31; Romans 16:17-18; Titus 1:9; 2 Peter 2:1-3). In an age that tolerates everything but the truth, courage is needed to speak the truth in love in an uncompromising manner."
The CCC-APD continues with "The Bible provides a clear and consistent teaching in opposition to homosexuality. . .
Contrary to popularized agendas, the Bible and those who have officially taught Christianity throughout the ages have recognized the sinfulness of homosexuality. The interpretations of such teachers as Athenagorus, Tertullian, Origen, Cyprian, Lactantius, Eusebius, Athanasius, Chrysostom, and Augustine are unanimous. . ."
Now That is a fine example true Christian cooperation (I avoid the "E word").
The letters "St." normally appear in front of some of the names in the previous paragraph, but now is not the time to quibble.
Also the use of the letters CCC-APD is just local to this post.
Tom Donovan is probably also a bit troubled. He ought to be as a member of Call To Action. Of course Donovan has an additional reason to be troubled since he "attends 'services' at the Franciscan Renewal Center which is on the USA List of 'Gay Friendly' Parishes and well worth (begging for) an investigation.
The CTA/AZ Newsletter of March, 2000 contains information:
-About Meyer sharing "new perspectives on American Catholicism and American Culture" on June 8, 2000 for CTA members and guests.
-That Donovan is the Treasurer and Member of the Board of Directors of CTA/AZ.
-And some insight, on page 2, of the early relationship between the people of NLS-CFJ and CTA/AZ in the promotion by the "Clergy for Justice" of "two published authors on the Bible and Homosexuality" held at Asbury United Methodist Church on April 28, 2000. Asbury plays a leadership role in NLS.
-That a (current?/former?) Diocesan employee is a CTA member, a member of the CTA/AZ Board, and the Co-Editor of the CTA/AZ New Directions newsletter.
The CTA/AZ Newsletter of May, 1999 contains information:
-On Page 6 about "An Evening with Fr. Vernon Meyer held on May 13, 1999 at St. Stephen's Episcopal Church Campus. The notice states that: "Vernon is leaving the Valley in August 1999 for several years to do doctoral work at the University of Dayton in Theology and Culture. The evening program is a celebration of Vernon's prophetic ministry among us. He will present on the topic, 'A Vision of An Authentic Church for the Future.' Come and celebrate with Vernon and wish him well in his new pursuits."
This sign is for everything diverse that is not sinful.
It lists the 2 causes of our Church problems as stated
by Bp. F.B. at the USCCB meeting in Dallas.
It is against Dissent and Sodomy.
Note: See the previous posts on this thread for more details intended to assist others in their research.
More details will be posted as time and events permit.
The Call-To-Action CTA/AZ "New Directions" Newsletter of May, 1999 contains the following about two of the priests who have signed the NLS Declaration:
-On Page 3 under Affirmations
"Fr. Ray Ritari has been a prophet in our midst. In response to some malicious, outlandish talk by some Arizona legislators about gay and lesbian persons. Ray has written and spoken eloquently about the human dignity of all persons and bigotry and homophobia expressed by legislators and others. Ray's original letter speaking of human dignity of gay and lesbian persons appeared in the Arizona Republic. His letter was subsequently republished in the Catholic Sun. When many letters in the Catholic Sun attacked Ray's letter and some Ray personally, Fr. John Cunningham wrote a letter of affirmation and support of Ray again challenging us all to overcome our prejudices and bigotry. We thank these men for being prophets in our midst, for preaching the dignity of all persons in the marketplace despite the obvious backlash and at personal risk. Thanks for being such bold courageous followers of Jesus Christ and calling for an inclusive Church where all are welcome.
Rev. Gomez is a Yaqui Indian who serves at a small parish that 'has transitioned from European Americans to become more people of color: Native American, Hispanic and African American.' Ray insists, 'We will fulfill our mission by being multicultural, honoring diversity, and welcoming people as they are -- using and encouraging shared leadership -- and being a witness through our faith actions in the community.' Have faith, CTA, we are on the right path; spreading the gospel message."
Comments:
-Fr. Raymond J. Ritari's first name is not "Ray", it is Father, until the Pope decides otherwise.
-Holy diversity of cultures is wonderful and broadens our perspectives,
But our perspectives should Not be broadened unto Sin and anything contrary to Church teaching.
-"Prophets"?
-The underlines have been added.
Please review Posts# 11-14 of this thread.
Related threads:
Priest suspended over communion (4/30/2004) [Error, ignore bracketed part of this title]
New bishop shows his view of gays (5/1/2004)
I have no doubt it will be.
Kudos to Bishop Thomas J. Olmsted for his moral courage in calling for nine Roman Catholic priests to remove their names from a pro-homosexual document.
In a day of sexual anarchy Bishop Olmsted is standing upon the sure foundations of ancient Christendom.
Modern-day revisionist tendencies among certain clergy are founded not upon the text of Holy Scripture but upon the shifting whims of what is currently culturally acceptable.
It should be noted, as well, that Protestants have not been silent about the pro-homosexual declarations circulating about.
A document titled Courage, Clarity, and Charity," which endorses the traditional viewpoint of the Christian church on homosexuality, has been signed by 248 Phoenix church leaders representing 144 churches and organizations.
Please see www.phoenixdeclaration.org for more details. -
Richard J. Klaus, Phoenix
The writer is a co-author of "Courage, Clarity, and Charity," and an elder at Emmanuel Covenant Church.
[To avoid confusion, remember that both groups use the words "Phoenix Declaration".]
The Arizona Republic - Opinions online print edition
May. 5, 2004 12:00 AM -- Link to the Opinion Article
Regarding Phoenix Bishop Thomas Olmsted's order to the nine priests:
My awareness through Bible passages is that Jesus, often to the horror of his apostles, consistently offered God's love to marginalized and disenfranchised peoples of all kinds, regardless of who they were.
These marginalized peoples were brought to the inclusion, love, solace and peace that He offered.
In our current society, there seem to be major figureheads who have forgotten these basic teachings in the swirl of rules and regulations that were initially instituted to organize these teachings.
It now becomes more obvious to me that the rules and regulations made by man overrule the compassionate heart given to us by God's teachings.
I applaud the nine priests who are willing to follow the compassionate heart.
-- Barbara Rossman, Scottsdale
On this list in addition to the 3/31/2004 names is a NEW name: Rev. Nils F. Thompson, OFM, Phoenix
Names that have been removed from the March 31, 2004 List:
L#19--Rev. Scott Brubaker, pastor, St. Bridget, Mesa.
L#25--Rev. Chris Carpenter, pastor, Christ the King, Mesa.
L#87--Rev. Ray Ritari, pastor, St. Matthew, Phoenix.
Names still on the List as of May 6, 2004 @ 4PM:
L#15--Rev. Andre Boulanger, retired.
L#31--Rev. John Cunningham, pastor, St. Mary Magdalene, Gilbert.
L#48--Rev. Hugo Gonzalez, pastor, St. Charles Borromeo, Peoria.
L#63--Rev. Matthew Mampara, associate, St. Mary Magdalene.
L#70--Rev. Vernon Meyer, Sunday associate, St. Patrick, Scottsdale.
L#110-Rev. Nils F. Thompson, OFM, Phoenix [Not yet mentioned in the Press***]
L#113-Rev. Ken Van de Ven, pastor, St. James, Glendale.
L#120-Brother Doug Zlatis of St. Matthew.
Here and following is some info about these names.
The Arizona Republic -- Opinions online print edition
May. 3, 2004 12:00 AM -- Link to the Opinion Article
Regarding the Wednesday article "Don't back gays, bishop tells priests": There are several points that require clarification.
First, the original draft of the document "Always Our Children" was not "watered down by the Vatican," as stated in the article. The original draft of that document contained inaccurate representations of Catholic teaching. Thus, the Vatican restored (not watered down) the document so it could be useful and instructive.
Second, you reference church "liberals" and "conservatives." These descriptors suggest that there are different philosophies or viewpoints, as with, say, a political party. However, in the Roman Catholic Church, they do not exist; there is only orthodoxy and heterodoxy.
Third, your article says Father Vernon Meyer argues "the document was ambiguous enough that it did not conflict with Catholic teaching." For 2000 years, the church has labored against ambiguity, and strove to make her teachings clear and unambiguous. Ambiguity can lead the faithful astray, and no Catholic, let alone a priest, should ever endorse anything that is not a clear reflection of the magisterial of the church.
Bishop Thomas J. Olmsted understands this principle and is working diligently to clarify matters such as these.
Finally, the phrase "in obedience to him" contained in his confidential letter to the priests might suggest to some that power and ego are involved.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Allowing members of the clergy to persist in error would be a failure of leadership on the bishop's part. And isn't it just this sort of episcopal failure in other recent issues that is something that all Catholics seem eager to remedy? -
Michael J. Malone, Phoenix
The Arizona Republic -- Opinions online print edition
May. 4, 2004 12:00 AM -- Link to the Opinion Article
Church teaching is very clear in its condemnation of any discrimination, violence or prejudice against anyone regardless of their race, gender or orientation.
This condemnation is based on the teaching that all people are made in God's image and likeness. This means that whether conservatives and fundamentalist like it or not, gays, lesbians, bisexual and transgendered human beings are made in God's image and likeness!
Secondly, church teaching is also clear that those who have been divorced and remarried, those who practice birth control, those who support the death penalty and those who support the war in Iraq also stand in conflict with the church. If we are going to condemn some for immoral behavior, let us also be consistent in condemning everyone's immorality.
But let us also remember that Jesus taught us to love our enemies and taught us not to judge, lest we be judged. Anyone's rush to orthodoxy must not at the same time negate the teachings of Jesus about compassion and mercy to be shown to everyone regardless of their orientation. -
The Rev. Vernon Meyer, Scottsdale
Note: Underlines added. Meyer seems to believe orthodox Catholics are "fundamentalists". There was a letter to the editor of the Catholic Sun some years ago in which Meyer blasted the "fundamentalists". Orthodoxy seems to be a source of irritation to him.
As of this moment Meyer has not yet removed his name from the Current NLS List.
FYI: An article from 2002 involving Meyer follows this post.
Lindsey Collom
The Arizona Republic -- Jun. 23, 2002 12:00 PM [Old article about Meyer]
Link to complete Article
A meeting touted as a forum for Catholics struggling with sexual scandals in the church caused a handful of parishioners to storm out of St. Patrick's Church in Scottsdale early Saturday.
About 80 Catholics from across the Valley attended the meeting led by the Rev. Vernon Meyer to air concerns about sexual misconduct by priests against minors and the crimes' subsequent handling by the church.
"There's a lot of people who have been voicing their opinions about this that I'm not so sure are competent," Meyer said, urging the congregation to know canon law and wait for solutions to emerge from Catholic leaders and Scripture.
Retiree Louise Kern of Scottsdale walked out after being rebuffed by the priest and several onlookers. She made a statement about the church allowing the Rev. Harold Graf of St. Joan of Arc Church in Phoenix to remain in service despite improper conduct with a minor 24 years ago.
"This place is a joke. That's why we came out here, because we thought this was a discussion of what's going on. He doesn't want to do that," Kern said. "We would never sit there and listen to what they've done with the Catholic Church or that hypocrite of a bishop [O'Brien]."
Kern said it was as if she were being lectured on the "do's" and "don'ts" of expressing opinion instead of being allowed to speak freely. But Joe Santa Cruz, 31, of Phoenix, said he felt the opposite.
. . . [snip, Excerpted article]
The discussion came a day after Bishop Thomas O'Brien of the Phoenix Diocese announced he would reprimand all priests found guilty of committing sexual acts with minors. He began by removing Graf, and the Revs. Joseph Lessard and Joseph Brecino from active ministry, a move he should have made earlier, Santa Cruz said.
"He did what he had to do, but he's a little late," he said. "I think the bishop should allow more discussion from the laity, more of a dialogue, listen to people's needs."
Kern said she and her husband, Neil, are longtime Catholics who are tired of the corruption being ignored.
"The people that Neil and I have respected most of anyone in our long life is Catholic priests, and these people do not deserve respect for what they've done to the church," Kern added. "They say we need to uphold the hand of the priest. I don't want to hold his hand. I want to give him the back of my hand."
Meyer said he's "just as ticked off" about the sexual scandal as anyone else, but he was more concerned about setting an amicable tone in the first meeting. He will facilitate follow-up forums from 7:30 to 9 p.m. Monday and Wednesday at the Scottsdale parish.
BZZZT!
Read some Aquinas and try again, Padre.
Note that nowhere in his very misleading letter does Meyer ever refer to the fact that, while opposing unjust discrimination against homosexual persons, the Church absolutely condemns sodomy.
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