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The Excommunication of the Followers of Archbishop Lefebvre
Catholic Culture ^ | August 24, 1996 | Pontificial Council for the Interpretation of Legislative Texts

Posted on 04/28/2004 2:25:44 PM PDT by gbcdoj

Pontifical Council for the Interpretation of Legislative Texts

Annexe to Prot.N. 5233/96

1 . From the Motu Proprio "Ecclesia dei" of 2nd July 1988 and from the Decree "Dominus Marcellus Lefebvre" of the Congregation for Bishops, of 1st July 1988, it appears above all that the schism of Monsignor Lefebvre was declared in immediate reaction to the episcopal ordinations conferred on 30th June 1988 without pontifical mandate (cf CIC, Can. 1382). All the same it also appears clear from the aforementioned documents that such a most grave act of disobedience formed the consummation of a progressive global situation of a schismatic character.

2. In effect no. 4. of the Motu Proprio explains the nature of the "doctrinal root of this schismatic act," and no. 5. c) warns that a "formal adherence to the schism" (by which one must understand "the movement of Archbishop Lefebvre") would bring with it the excommunication established by the universal law of the Church (CIC, can. 1364 para.1). Also the decree of the Congregation for Bishops makes explicit reference to the "schismatic nature" of the aforesaid episcopal ordinations and mentions the most grave penalty of excommunication which adherence "to the schism of Monsignor Lefebvre" would bring with it.

3. Unfortunately, the schismatic act which gave rise to the Motu Proprio and the Decree did no more than draw to a conclusion, in a particularly visible and unequivocal manner — with a most grave formal act of disobedience to the Roman Pontiff — a process of distancing from hierarchical communion. As long as there are no changes which may lead to the re-establishment of this necessary communion, the whole Lefebvrian movement is to be held schismatic, in view of the existence of a formal declaration by the Supreme Authority on this matter.

4. One cannot furnish any judgement on the argumentation of Murray's thesis (see below) because it is not known, and the two articles which refer to it appear confused. However, doubt cannot reasonably be cast upon the validity of the excommunication of the Bishops declared in the Motu Proprio and the Decree. In particular it does not seem that one may be able to find, as far as the imputability of the penalty is concerned, any exempting or lessening circumstances. (cf CIC, can. 1323) As far as the state of necessity in which Mons. Lefebvre thought to find himself, one must keep before one that such a state must be verified objectively, and there is never a necessity to ordain Bishops contrary to the will of the Roman Pontiff, Head of the College of Bishops. This would, in fact, imply the possibility of "serving" the church by means of an attempt against its unity in an area connected with the very foundations of this unity.

5. As the Motu Proprio declares in no. 5 c) the excommunication latae sententiae for schism regards those who "adhere formally" to the said schismatic movement. Even if the question of the exact import of the notion of "formal adherence to the schism" would be a matter for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, it seems to this pontifical Council that such formal adherence would have to imply two complementary elements:

a) one of internal nature, consisting in a free and informed agreement with the substance of the schism, in other words, in the choice made in such a way of the followers of Archbishop Lefebvre which puts such an option above obedience to the Pope (at the root of this attitude there will usually be positions contrary to the magisterium of the Church),

b) the other of an external character, consisting in the externalising of this option, the most manifest sign of which will be the exclusive participation in Lefebvrian "ecclesial" acts, without taking part in the acts of the Catholic Church (one is dealing however with a sign that is not univocal, since there is the possibility that a member of the faithful may take part in the liturgical functions of the followers of Lefebvre but without going along with their schismatic spirit).

6. In the case of the Lefebvrian deacons and priests there seems no doubt that their ministerial activity in the ambit of the schismatic movement is a more than evident sign of the fact that the two requirements mentioned above (n.5) are met, and thus that there is a formal adherence.

7. On the other hand, in the case of the rest of the faithful it is obvious that an occasional participation in liturgical acts or the activity of the Lefebvrian movement, done without making one's own the attitude of doctrinal and disciplinary disunion of such a movement, does not suffice for one to be able to speak of formal adherence to the movement. In pastoral practice the result can be that it is more difficult to judge their situation. One must take account above all of the person's intentions, and the putting into practice of this internal disposition. For this reason the various situations are going to be judged case by case, in the competent forums both internal and external.

8. All the same, it will always be necessary to distinguish between the moral question on the existence or not of the sin of schism and the juridical-penal question on the existence of the delict of schism, and its consequent sanction. In this latter case the dispositions of Book V1 of the Code of Canon Law (including Cann.1323-1324) will be applied.

9. It does not seem advisable to make more precise the requirements for the delict of schism (but one would need to ask the competent Dicastery, cf. Ap. Const. "Pastor Bonus", art 52). One might risk creating more problems by means of rigid norms of a penal kind which would not cover every case, leaving uncovered cases of substantial schism, or having regard to external behaviour which is not always subjectively schismatic.

10. Always from the pastoral point of view it would also seem opportune to recommend once again to sacred pastors all the norms of the Motu Proprio "Ecclesia Dei" with which the solicitude of the Vicar of Christ encouraged to dialogue and has provided the supernatural and human means necessary to facilitate the return of the Lefebvrians to full ecclesial communion.

Vatican City, 24th August 1996.


Comment — Although dated August 1996, presumably its publication early in 1998 was in view, at least in part, of the forthcoming tenth anniversary of the Consecrations and the issuing of the Motu Proprio and Decree.

While initiatives taken under their auspices have had a positive impact, with a number of new religious institutes, and flourishing vocations, now in full communion with the Holy See, and increasingly welcomed by diocesan bishops in some parts of the world, it is also true that there are many places where little attention has been given to its implementation.

Moreover while the Lefebvrist movement has had some set backs, the number of adherents has not diminished significantly. A recent book to mark twenty five years of the Society of St Pius X in Britain (R.Warwick, The Living Flame, London 1997) indicates that there are some twenty Lefebvrist church buildings in Great Britain at present, with some 2000 regular worshippers. In the United States the situation is more extensive and much more varied, with many independent priests and chapels, as well as more extremely sedevacantist groups such as the Society of St Pius X (sic - Ed. note) and the Mount St Michael Community.

The question of apostolic succession has also become more complex. The fissiparous nature of such groups means that not all their orders are derived from Archbishop Lefebvre. Some, having departed from the Society of St Pius X, have obtained orders or episcopal consecration from Archbishop Ngo Dinh Thuc, or his successors, Bishop Alfred Mendez (formerly of Arecibo), or from Old Catholic and similar sources. For details of the American scene one should consult M. Cuneo. The Smoke of Satan, New York 1997, a book which is informative if irritatingly discursive.

Supporters of the Society of St Pius X frequently distribute leaflets containing highly selective or tendentious quotations. One, for example, claims that the Society is neither schismatic nor excommunicated. Generally the line of argument is that since Archbishop Lefebvre was not schismatic, he was not excommunicated, and a fortiori neither were any of his followers.

The leaflet quotes Cardinal Castillo Lara to the effect that consecrating a bishop without the Pope's permission is not in itself a schismatic act. It continues that merely to consecrate bishops, without intending to set up an alternative hierarchy in the jurisdictional sense is not an act of schism. Several canonists are quoted as endorsing these views, Count Neri Capponi, an advocate accredited to the Signatura, Professor Geringer of Munich University, Fr. Patrick Valdini, Professor of Canon Law at the Catholic Institute of Paris, and Fr. Gerald Murray who presented his thesis on the subject at the Gregorian University.

Reference is also made to the decision of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, dated 28th June 1993, that the excommunication imposed on followers of Archbishop Lefebvre on 1st May 1991 by Bishop Ferraio of Hawaii was invalid since there had been no schismatic acts in the strict sense. One cannot be certain as to the accuracy of such quotations, at least in terms of completeness. For example the decree mentioned added a rider that there were other grounds on which the Bishop could take action.

I am not aware whether Fr.Murray's thesis has been published, but it would appear that the Council had been sent not the thesis but two articles published in the Fall issue of "Latin Mass" magazine. The first was an interview with Fr .Murray conducted by Roger McCaffrey (pp.50-55). The second was a summary of the thesis prepared by Steven Terenzio (pp.55-61).

Murray's first line of argument appears to be that the lay followers of Society of St Pius X do not incur the excommunication, because only an external violation of a law or precept can be subject to a canonical penalty (art.cit. p.56), and there must be grave imputability. The warnings contained in the Motu Proprio give no specific indications as to what constitutes "adherence," making liability to penalty at least open to doubt.

A second line of argument is that the Archbishop denied schism, and that simple disobedience does not constitute schism, only systematic and habitual refusal of dependence.

A third line of argument is that an erroneous view that necessity justified his action would have made his action culpable, but removed canonical malice and therefore liability to excommunication (canon 1323 7o). His argument in effect is that the provisions of the 1983 Code are so exigent for imputability to be proved and a penalty incurred, that the Archbishop and his followers escape by virtue of the very postconciliar legislation they so oppose.

"On the other hand, Canon 209 prescribes: 'Para. 1. Christ's faithful are bound to preserve their communion with the Church at all times, even in their external actions. Para.2 They are to carry out with great diligence their responsibilities towards both the universal Church and the particular Church to which by law they belong.' It is obvious that a lay person who exclusively frequents chapels directed by suspended priests of the Society of St Pius X, which operate without the permission of either the local or the universal Church, is not, in fact, at the very least, living in external communion with the Church. Thus we have the anomalous situation of a group of faithful who are in fact in some real way living apart from real communion with the Church, but who are almost certainly not subject to the canonical penalties intended to discourage and punish such behaviour." (cited from Terenzio, art. cit. p.61).

The Note was clearly prepared as a reply to the arguments of this kind (cf. n.4). The suggestion that there might be any doubt cast upon the excommunication declared by the Congregation for Bishops in the case of the Archbishop and those he consecrated is given short shrift.

It might be worth remembering that the penalty was raised to excommunication because of the creation of the Patriotic Catholic Association in China, and consecration of Bishops without a mandate. The 1917 Code (canon 2370) had provided only for suspension.

Historically the situation had arisen in Latin America when difficult travel conditions had delayed the arrival of the mandate, and a planned consecration had gone ahead without it, but with no schismatic intent. Here the situation was quite different, and although the intention might not have been to set up an alternative jurisdiction, only to provide for the sacraments, de facto that is what was already happening. Moreover since the protocol originally signed by Archbishop Lefebvre actually provided for the consecration of one Bishop, necessity could hardly be argued.

The Note then turns to those whose excommunication has not been declared; the clergy and faithful associated with the Society of St Pius X. The Council prescind from any decision that might be made by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, but sets out two general legal criteria that would be required for "formal adherence."

The first is an internal criterion, one of intention. An external violation of a law cannot incur a penalty where there is inculpable ignorance, inadvertence or error with regard to violating the law (can. 1323 2°). Equally the penalty must be reduced where the person was unaware of the penalty, through no fault of their own, or lacked full imputability (can. 1324 9° & 10°). There is a requirement of schismatic intention, that is freely and consciously accepting the substance of the schism, that is putting one's personal choice above obedience to the Pope. Generally, this will be characterised by an habitual stance contrary to the Magisterium of the Church.

The second criterion is external, the external effect given to this choice. The most obvious sign of this is to attend solely and exclusively those celebrations conducted by followers of Archbishop Lefebvre, and eschewing those of the mainstream Church, not only local Bishop and clergy, but, for example, those legitimately using the 1962 liturgical books, such as the Fraternity of St Peter.

To a degree the Council is accepting the argumentation presented by Fr.Murray in that an external violation of the law is required not simply a supposed internal attitude of mind, and that more is required subjectively than attendance even habitually at Lefebvrist centres or celebrations. The latter is compatible with an internal disposition which still accepts the authority of the Pope. However, it parts company with him in that it argues that the disobedience involved in aligning oneself with the Lefebvrists itself implies a schismatic intention, even though one might not formally reject the authority of the Pope or local Bishop. Such a position is logically inconsistent, and one must ask what is the prevalent intention in a particular case.

The Note points out that one must distinguish between the moral question of the sin of schism, and the legal question of a delict and its imputability. Once there has been an external violation, imputability is presumed until it appears otherwise (can. 1321 para 3). The onus is on the person to establish elements removing or reducing imputability. In the internal forum there is no such presumption. This means that in the case of lay people, their position will often be difficult to discern. In this situation one must have a mind to the liberty guaranteed by canon 18. In the case of clergy, their external involvement in the ministry in the ambit of the schismatic movement is itself sufficient evidence that both internal and external criteria for formal adherence have been fulfilled. However, such a censure is undeclared and therefore subject to the limits mentioned in canons 1331 and 1335.

While the document speaks of Lefebvrists, it does not refer by name to the Society of St Pius X, and so the criteria should be applied also to other similar groups that are associated with the Archbishop's followers, religious communities, the dissident clergy of the Diocese of Campos in Brazil, but also others, such as those mentioned above, who hold similar positions, even though their hierarchs may not have been declared excommunicated.

It does not apply to those who belong to groups whose position has been regularised by the Commission Ecclesia Dei, or established by the authority of the local Bishop of Scranton on 24th May 1998.

The position of 'freelance' clerics, retired or otherwise released from their Diocese, but not subject to any other penalty, who are operating chapels without reference to the local Bishop, or in defiance of his known wishes would have to be judged on their individual merits. In some cases it may be the Bishop rather than the cleric who is not open to dialogue about regularising their situation in accordance with the provisions of the Motu Proprio. The same may be true for groups of lay people seeking spiritual provision in the form of chaplaincy, and who have availed of the services of a priest or bishop whose situation is irregular.

While there might be a direct approach to the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, the latter is reluctant to force Bishops' hands and prefers to work by persuasion.

15th July 1998

Rev. Gordon F.Read

Fr. Michael Brown, Assistant Judicial Vicar, Hexham & Newcastle Diocesan Tribunal


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholiclist; lefebvre; saints; schism; sspx
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To: gbcdoj
The word "sacrifice" is used--but not in the Catholic sense. The Novus Ordo is talking about what the new theology terms "a sacrifice of praise," not a sacrifice of atonement. One of the modernist tricks is to redefine words like "Eucharist" "sacrifice" "sacrament". The same words are used, but without their original denotations. I will answer you in greater depth on this when time permits me to do it justice. I have done so before many times--and will do so again. The Novus Ordo is Protestant in its theology, designed to deliberately undercut the Catholic faith, the dogmas of Transubstantiation and Propitiation, in particular.
41 posted on 04/28/2004 8:36:11 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: Viva Christo Rey
Again, below is the applicable decree, not your heretical "1983 Code of Canon Law" which permits reception of the Eucharist by non-catholics.

The 1983 Code of Canon Law permits the reception of the Eucharist by schismatics under certain circumstances. It does not envision giving the Eucharist to heretics (C. 844.4 is concerned with the Polish National Catholics and similar western styled schismatics). Schismatics, of course, are not "non-Catholics", since they hold the same faith.

Intercommunion with the Orthodox was widely practiced up until a 1729 decree of the Holy Office forbidding it. This was certainly the case in Crete and Cyprus and other Greek islands held by the Venetians, in which they appointed a Latin Bishop to oversee the Greek clergy and people.

42 posted on 04/28/2004 8:38:12 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: dsc
Actually, it is. Even as late as the forties and fifties it wasn't considered to be bigotry on a par with lynching, as it is now.

No it isn't.

2. He has been told, and has done nothing.

There was one bishop against whom allegations were proven. The Pope accepted his resignation.

43 posted on 04/28/2004 8:38:50 PM PDT by gbcdoj (Et ecce ego vobiscum sum omnibus diebus usque ad consummationem saeculi)
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To: sinkspur
"Ideas are not for true girls" is "traditional"?

It is for people who understand that history extends back past 1965 or so.

"No girls in university?"

The mainstream position in America and the rest of the world until quite recently.

"Would you like a post or two about Williamson's anti-semitism?"

Liberals do love to change the subject when the facts are against them.

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. It is only liberals like you who manage to be wrong *all* the time.

44 posted on 04/28/2004 8:41:43 PM PDT by dsc
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
Schismatics, of course, are not "non-Catholics", since they hold the same faith.

12 Q: The many societies of persons who are baptized but who do not acknowledge the Roman Pontiff as their Head do not, then, belong to the Church of Jesus Christ?

A: No, those who do not acknowledge the Roman Pontiff as their Head do not belong to the Church of Jesus Christ. (St. Pius X Catechism)

What am I missing?

45 posted on 04/28/2004 8:45:55 PM PDT by gbcdoj (Et ecce ego vobiscum sum omnibus diebus usque ad consummationem saeculi)
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To: dsc
What possible reason would the Vatican have for refusing to pick one of the candidates put forward by Lefebvre?

Perhaps they believed that the Pope and other Bishops were antichrists, as Lefebvre had wildly accused in 1987 to his Bishops-to-be?

46 posted on 04/28/2004 8:46:59 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: gbcdoj
Doesn't apply. You guys love to cut and paste. Two can play this game, though I won't. It's boring and proves nothing. In any case, nobody in the SSPX denies the Pope's authority. They do not thrust him away--it was the Pope who thrust the Society away--unjustly. There is a huge difference between the two acts. A son cannot force a father to behave as a father, even though the son might yet respect his fatherhood. What are we to make of such a careless charge of schism without any basis in fact, as was reflected in the Ecclesia Dei Adflicta letter? I know what I make of it--it is an injustice, pure and simple. What's more, most of Rome knows it is--but fears speaking openly about it. The truth comes out only indirectly--as when Ratzinger forbids a bishop to excommunicate Catholics for attending SSPX liturgies, or when Msgr. Perle of Ecclesia Dei affirms Catholics don't sin when they attend SSPX Masses, or when Hoyos openly declares Lefebvre was never in schism. It trickles out gradually, little by little, year by year.
47 posted on 04/28/2004 8:47:39 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: gbcdoj
"No it isn't."

Yes, it is. It is what most human beings believed for almost all of human history, and I wouldn't be surprised if a majority of the human race believes it to this day.

In linking to the writings of St. Theresa, you're not making an argument that it hasn't been tradition for most of history; you're making an argument that it isn't true, because, "See, here's the exception."

You need to keep those two questions separate. "Is it the traditional position" is a separate question from "Is it true."

True or not, it is the traditional position, by virtue of the fact that almost everyone has accepted it for almost all of history.

"There was one bishop against whom allegations were proven. The Pope accepted his resignation."

The major reason that the many other boy-raping bishops and priests have not had allegations proven against them is that the Holy Father has not taken action.

If he had wanted to, he could have amassed sufficient proof against every offending member of the clergy within a year or two of starting to look. Apparently, he didn't want to.

48 posted on 04/28/2004 8:52:52 PM PDT by dsc
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To: gbcdoj
"What am I missing?"

SSPX does acknowledge the Roman Pontiff as their Head.
49 posted on 04/28/2004 8:54:44 PM PDT by dsc
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
"Perhaps they believed that the Pope and other Bishops were antichrists, as Lefebvre had wildly accused in 1987 to his Bishops-to-be?"

Got a citation?
50 posted on 04/28/2004 8:57:56 PM PDT by dsc
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
You've been corrected on this slur before. The Archbishop never accused the Pope of being an Anti-Christ. He was referring to those in the Vatican bureaucracy as Anti-Christs. That is why he used the plural.
51 posted on 04/28/2004 8:58:04 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: CatherineSiena
Fr. Murray has since admitted to at least one serious flaw in the reasoning he employed in this thesis, and has requested that it not be reproduced, and that his name and work not be used to argue that the SSPX is not schismatic.

Although, I do have to wonder if the "one serious flaw in the reasoning that he employed" was his lack of consideration of cushy positions he would be offered if he would only distance himself from certain flawed reasonings.

52 posted on 04/28/2004 8:58:15 PM PDT by TradicalRC (Bibo ergo sum.)
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To: dsc
SSPX does acknowledge the Roman Pontiff as their Head.

According to the Pope they reject him. (cf. "Ecclesia Dei" §3). But that's besides the point, as Hermann was referring to other non-Catholics like the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox, who are certainly in schism:

Therefore, if the Greeks or others should say that they are not confided to Peter and to his successors, they must confess not being the sheep of Christ, since Our Lord says in John 'there is one sheepfold and one shepherd.' (Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam)

53 posted on 04/28/2004 9:01:22 PM PDT by gbcdoj (Et ecce ego vobiscum sum omnibus diebus usque ad consummationem saeculi)
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To: gbcdoj
By definition, someone who holds the Catholic faith but rejects the Pastors of the Church or refuses to intercommune with her members is not a non-Catholic. They are either a schismatic, or they are disobedient to legitimate authority, depending upon their specific position.

A non-Catholic is someone who is either (a) a member of a non Christian religion or an atheist, (b) a heretic, who holds one or more false propositions about the faith.

Schismatics do not belong to the Church in so far as they reject the heirarchy. But they do belong to the extent that the share the same faith with us.

Adherents of the SSPX, or the Orthodox or Polish National Catholic Churches are properly schismatic or disobedient Catholics. We all hold to the same faith.

You are confusing membership in the Church with Catholicity. But one of the faithful excommunicated for a morals crime (abortion, solicitation in the confessional) is not a member of the Church, yet he is still a Catholic. On the other hand, a material heretic is not a Catholic (since they no longer hold to the one faith), but is still a member of the Church, since their error is held innocently.
54 posted on 04/28/2004 9:02:39 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: dsc
My dear friends,

The See of Peter and the posts of authority in Rome being occupied by anti-Christs, the destruction of the Kingdom of Our Lord is being rapidly carried out even within His Mystical Body here below, especially through the corruption of the Holy Mass which is both the splendid expression of the triumph of Our Lord on the Cross - Regnavit a Ligno Deus - and the source of the extension of His kingdom over souls and over societies. Hence the absolute need appears obvious of ensuring the permanency and continuation of the adorable Sacrifice of Our Lord in order that "His Kingdom come." The corruption of the Holy Mass has brought the corruption of the priesthood and the universal decadence of Faith in the divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

God raised up the Priestly Society of St. Pius X for the maintenance and perpetuity of His glorious and expiatory Sacrifice within the Church. He chose Himself some true priests instructed in and convinced of these divine mysteries. God bestowed upon me the grace to prepare these Levites and to confer upon them the grace of the priesthood for the continuation of the true Sacrifice according to the definition of the Council of Trent.

This is what has brought down upon our heads persecution by the Rome of the anti-Christs. Since this Rome, Modernist and Liberal, is carrying on its work of destruction of the Kingdom of Our Lord, as Assisi and the confirmation of the Liberal theses of Vatican II on Religious Liberty prove, I find myself constrained by Divine Providence to pass on the grace of the Catholic episcopacy which I received, in order that the Church and the Catholic priesthood continue to subsist for the glory of God and for the salvation of souls.

That is why, convinced that I am only carrying out the holy will of Our Lord, I am writing this letter to ask you to agree to receive the grace of the Catholic episcopacy, just as I have already conferred it on other priests in other circumstances. I will bestow this grace upon you, confident that without too long a delay the See of Peter will be occupied by a successor of Peter who is perfectly Catholic, and into whose hands you will be able to put back the grace of your episcopacy so that he may confirm it.

The main purpose of my passing on the episcopacy is that the grace of priestly orders be continued, for the true Sacrifice of the Mass to be continued, and that the grace of the Sacrament of Confirmation be bestowed upon children and upon the faithful who will ask you for it.

I beseech you to remain attached to the See of Peter, to the Roman Church, Mother and Mistress of all Churches, in the integral Catholic Faith, expressed in the various creeds of our Catholic Faith, in the Catechism of the Council of Trent, in conformity with what you were taught in your seminary. Remain faithful in the handing down of this Faith so that the Kingdom of Our Lord may come.

Finally, I beseech you to remain attached to the Priestly Society of St. Pius X, to remain profoundly united amongst yourselves, in submission to the Society's Superior General, in the Catholic Faith of all time, remembering the words of St. Paul to the Galatians (1:8-9): "But even if we or an angel from heaven were to teach you a different gospel from the one we have taught you, let him be anathema."

As we have said before, now again I say: "if anyone teaches you a different gospel from what you have received, let him be anathema." My dear friends, be my consolation in Christ Jesus, remain strong in the Faith, faithful to the true Sacrifice of the Mass, to the true and holy priesthood of Our Lord for the triumph and glory of Jesus in heaven and upon earth, for the salvation of souls, for the salvation of my own soul.

In the hearts of Jesus and Mary I embrace you and bless you. Your father in Christ Jesus,

+ Marcel Lefebvre
55 posted on 04/28/2004 9:03:27 PM PDT by gbcdoj (Et ecce ego vobiscum sum omnibus diebus usque ad consummationem saeculi)
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To: dsc
The mainstream position in America and the rest of the world until quite recently.

Misogyny was mainstream, too, dsc.

Those who advocate misogyny are marginal criminals.

56 posted on 04/28/2004 9:03:46 PM PDT by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: gbcdoj; GatorGirl; maryz; *Catholic_list; afraidfortherepublic; Antoninus; Aquinasfan; Askel5; ...

"It has been made public by Una Voce-Venetia that the Bishop of Verona Msgr. Flavio Roberto Carraro O.F.M. has officially allowed since December 2002 S.S.P.X priests to use the church of Santa Toscana, where the Indult Mass is celebrated every Sunday, once per month, on the third Sunday of the month, to celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass."

Photos and a full report in Italian can be found at this URL: http://www.unavoce-ve.it/06-03-39.htm
57 posted on 04/28/2004 9:05:31 PM PDT by narses (If you want ON or OFF my Catholic Ping List email me. +)
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To: gbcdoj; GatorGirl; maryz; *Catholic_list; afraidfortherepublic; Antoninus; Aquinasfan; Askel5; ...
Now for a view of the world as seen from a Modern Priest:

If anyone believes that the Church is in a new Springtime due to the changes over the past years; as claimed by the highest authorities in the Church, let that party view the following pictures. Incidentally we, at one time, had two sons in the Divine Word Seminary (SVD). We removed them—for obvious reasons.

20030629 - 01.gif - 50222 Bytes
Fr. Francis Barboza, SVD, (DIVINE WORD) performs liturgical steps of a Hindu dance. With his feminine make-up and postures, he says that through this new form of inculturalization (haven’t we heard that word before from the Vatican) he communicates directly with God and preaches Christ to the people. Lumiere du Monde, November 1983
58 posted on 04/28/2004 9:07:51 PM PDT by narses (If you want ON or OFF my Catholic Ping List email me. +)
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To: Hermann the Cherusker; gbcdoj
Well said, although the phrase "adherents of the SSPX" is vague. Moreover, the reality of the modern world being what it is, in many places the invalid Sacraments offered by the mainstream American Church (and the fact that here on this site we've had many, many stories about invalid matter, invalid prayers and even clearly invalid intentions shows that such is not hyperbole) leaves the pius faithful in a quandry. Valid but illicit, or invalid (and therefore de facto illicit, even if they are offered by diocesan priests)? The SSPX plays a very important role in the battle ongoing for the return to Tradition of the modern hierarchy.
59 posted on 04/28/2004 9:13:20 PM PDT by narses (If you want ON or OFF my Catholic Ping List email me. +)
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To: ultima ratio
Martin Luther--you mean the patron saint of Novus Ordo? He also threw out the Offertory for starters and loathed the notion of a sacrificial liturgy. No wonder the Novus Ordo bishops hate Trent!

We sing his hymns in church now, don't we? Where are those authentic Catholic hymns of the pre-conciliar Church?

60 posted on 04/28/2004 9:16:09 PM PDT by TradicalRC (Bibo ergo sum.)
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