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To: FactQuest
The sacraments are most definitely something you "do."

Then so is repentance, belief, "taking Jesus as your personal Savior", prayer, Bible study ... etc. You'd better not do those, either.

For that matter, while we are on the subject of baptism, where do we see infant baptism in the Bible?

Tell me, when were Jewish boys circumcised? On the eighth day? When Peter speaks in Acts, he says "the promise is to you and to your children". What Peter giveth, FactQuest taketh away?

In the Bible, baptism is consistently seen as an act, by an adult, as an outward show of repentance.

Nonsense. Nothing in Scripture calls baptism "an outward show of repentance". Christ condemns anything done as an "outward show of repentance". Nothing in Scripture limits baptism to adults, either.

You have exalted the errors of Zwingli on the sacraments to be the equal of Scripture. Is Zwingli infallible? He'd better be, because you're taking his word about things, even down to saying things that are demonstrably false.

Where does it say that they had the authority to transfer the authority to forgive sin?

Same place it says they had the authority to write a single word of the New Testament.

Christ's death made the way for people to come directly into the presence of God Almighty, without priests

The English word "priest" corresponds to and is derived from the Greek presbyter, or elder, an office which is clearly instituted in the NT.

44 posted on 04/30/2004 12:01:10 PM PDT by Campion
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To: Campion
Me:The sacraments are most definitely something you "do."
You:Then so is repentance, belief, "taking Jesus as your personal Savior", prayer, Bible study ... etc. You'd better not do those, either.


Getting down to the nitty gritty, salvation comes from the acceptance of grace. God extends a gift to you. You receive it, or you reject it. Everything else in an act of righteousness. Repentance, belief... Not that any of these are to be avoided, on the contrary. They are the natural steps that are worked in the heart of the person who accepts God grace. But, these acts are not what saves.

Me:For that matter, while we are on the subject of baptism, where do we see infant baptism in the Bible?
You:Tell me, when were Jewish boys circumcised? On the eighth day? When Peter speaks in Acts, he says "the promise is to you and to your children". What Peter giveth, FactQuest taketh away?


Peter didn't say: "to you and your children... as long as you circumcise them on the 8th day... no, wait, better make that infant baptism." No, the promise is given without that condition... seems like you've added something. And I honestly haven't a clue as to what you think I've taken away, other than a condition that isn't there.

Me:In the Bible, baptism is consistently seen as an act, by an adult, as an outward show of repentance.
You: Nonsense. Nothing in Scripture calls baptism "an outward show of repentance". Christ condemns anything done as an "outward show of repentance". Nothing in Scripture limits baptism to adults, either.


Perhaps "show" was the wrong word choice... call it an outward manifestation of a real inner repentance. (putting aside the mental picture of someone walking the Via Dolorosa on their bloody knees...) No, nothing explicitly prohibits it. But, every example if that of an adult. Every example is coupled with repentance, save that of Jesus. (Hence John the Baptist's reluctance.) In the Jewish frame of reference, it was closely associated with ritual purification - cleansing from impurity. But forgiveness of sin was not its effect, that took a sacrifice at the temple.

Me:Where does it say that they had the authority to transfer the authority to forgive sin?
You:Same place it says they had the authority to write a single word of the New Testament.


The two aren't even close. One is a power - until then - vested solely in God. The other is something many people do every day. And it was only later that people came to realize that the accounts and letters were more than just a preservation of history and encouragements and teachings, but inspired as well.

Me:Christ's death made the way for people to come directly into the presence of God Almighty, without priests
You:The English word "priest" corresponds to and is derived from the Greek presbyter, or elder, an office which is clearly instituted in the NT.


Words, labels, semantics. What is the function of the elder as seen in the NT? Teaching, training, shepherding. Forgiving sins? Not seen. Baptizing infants? Not seen. Interceding? Not seen. Having their faith substitute for the lack of faith of their followers? Not seen.
50 posted on 04/30/2004 12:32:42 PM PDT by FactQuest
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