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To: monkfan
"Bishop: Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief of those who think that the Pope of Rome is superior to the Ecumenical Councils, and infallible in faith, notwithstanding the fact that several of the Popes have been heretics, and condemned as such by the Councils?"

Since the Orthodox Church considers Papal infallibility to be a heresy, so of course THEY consider Popes who believe in in fallibility to be heretics. But you are using the accusation that Popes have been heretics to prove your case that the Pope is not infallible. In other words, your support for your assertion that popes are fallible is nothing more than your assertion that popes are fallible.

"First off, the assertion is already "out there" and is not mine, per se."

You wrote it; it is now your assertion. If you cannot support it, do not assert it. At best, stating information that you have no reason to believe is true is gossip; at worst, slander.

"I do not, at this moment, have any documentation in my possession that I can utilize to expedite your request."

Ya know what? I don't need documentation. I just need to know why you believe that. An apparently, it's more a lousy reason (as mentionned above.)

"I'm sure it's all just a misunderstanding."

No, it's not. It's an ugly slander, and I'm scandalized by the fact that there is an apostle of Christ who has incorporated vicious slander such as that into a sacrament.

"What appears to be a lot of shifting and hem-hawing (don't bother with a dictionary), about what has been stated infallibly and what has not, is less than completely helpful."

Whatever a dictionary stated, when the Church proclaimed the doctrine of infallibility, it did so by defining what they meant by infallibility. (Or, you might say, under what conditions infallibility was present.) It's not the Catholic Church's fault that her enemies promote lies about what the Catholic Church said; her statements are clear.
70 posted on 05/03/2004 7:26:26 AM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus
Since the Orthodox Church considers Papal infallibility to be a heresy, so of course THEY consider Popes who believe in in fallibility to be heretics. But you are using the accusation that Popes have been heretics to prove your case that the Pope is not infallible. In other words, your support for your assertion that popes are fallible is nothing more than your assertion that popes are fallible.

Let's start with the well documented fact that Pope Honorius was condemned for heresy by the 6th Ecumenical Council. This was affirmed by every subsequent Pope until the 11th century. Now Rome would like to pretend it wasn't so. No doubt it undermines the infallibility claim. Additionally, we have the issue of Pope John VIII's condemnation of the Filioque, also reversed in the 11th century. Begs the question: "will the real infallible pope please stand up?" Fact is, there aren't any. Worse yet, that the Filioque has been formally condemned in an Ecumenical Council means that every single pope since then who affirms it is a heretic.

And if you will pardon my observation, by your own logic, your support for your assertion that popes are infallible is nothing more than your assertion that popes are infallible.

>>"First off, the assertion is already "out there" and is not mine, per se."<<

You wrote it; it is now your assertion. If you cannot support it, do not assert it. At best, stating information that you have no reason to believe is true is gossip; at worst, slander.

Yes, it is my assertion by adoption, not per se. Point being, my assertion is not some off-the-cuff, born-in-a-vaccuum, i-need-a-new-reason-to-hate-Rome-so-i'll-make-one-up accusation. A good deal has been written on this subject.

>>"I do not, at this moment, have any documentation in my possession that I can utilize to expedite your request." <<

Ya know what? I don't need documentation. I just need to know why you believe that. An apparently, it's more a lousy reason (as mentionned above.)

Ya. see above.

>>"I'm sure it's all just a misunderstanding." <<

No, it's not. It's an ugly slander, and I'm scandalized by the fact that there is an apostle of Christ who has incorporated vicious slander such as that into a sacrament.

Good grief. Don't let the sarcasm hit you on the way out, Sherlock.

>>"What appears to be a lot of shifting and hem-hawing (don't bother with a dictionary), about what has been stated infallibly and what has not, is less than completely helpful." <<

Whatever a dictionary stated, when the Church proclaimed the doctrine of infallibility, it did so by defining what they meant by infallibility. (Or, you might say, under what conditions infallibility was present.) It's not the Catholic Church's fault that her enemies promote lies about what the Catholic Church said; her statements are clear.

"We teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman pontiff speaks ex cathedra, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable." - Vatican I

Is this the clear statement you refer to?

82 posted on 05/03/2004 10:23:02 PM PDT by monkfan (Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.)
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